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	<title>Comments for Selenian Boondocks</title>
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	<link>http://selenianboondocks.com</link>
	<description>Random Musings from the Warped Minds of Jonathan Goff, Ken Murphy, John Hare, and Kirk Sorensen</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:44:34 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on VTVL Airlaunched by C Garner</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7887</link>
		<dc:creator>C Garner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 04:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7887</guid>
		<description>Since we&#039;re going to need a rocket(s) on the mothership anyway, leave the RATOs alone, and use a proper, throttle-able rocket in the tail. Modifying an existing airframe to do the job probably isn&#039;t going to happen, I don&#039;t think using a WK2 would be wise given the considerably different profile we&#039;re flying (besides the difficulty of &#039;where do we put the rockets?&#039; I wouldn&#039;t like the idea of offsetting them from the centerline too far!). So assume a purpose-built machine, probably not as efficient as a WK2,  but we can trade off on that for the benefits of optimal launch speeds and angles.

As before, fly up to a suitable ignition altitude,  then light the rocket on the mothership and spacecraft. The mothership&#039;s motor could perhaps throttle to minimize the load on the pylon. Since we have a clean-sheet design, we&#039;ve probably dealt with the issue of rocket exhausts. Alternatively, we could extend the pylon, placing the spacecraft further away from the mothership; this would also help with the pitch-up. 
As the pair accelerates, they pitch up, converting horizontal velocity to vertical velocity. Once the desired launch angle is reached, the craft separate. Now the spacecraft is developing little or no lift, but the mothership is still developing lots of lift. As well as this, the pair are still pitching up as separation occurs, so they naturally &#039;fly apart&#039;, in much the same way as fighter-bombers &#039;toss&#039; bombs towards a target. So separation is no issue.
The spacecraft continues on it&#039;s own trajectory now, but the mothership continues pitching over onto it&#039;s back, probably with some thrust still coming from the rocket (to avoid slowing down and stalling over the top in the thin air). Once level, it rolls back upright, shuts down the rocket, and returns to base.

This should provide good flexibility of launch angle, launch speed (by using an appropriate pitch rate), and makes separation a non-issue.

But then I&#039;m just a pilot, not an engineer...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since we&#8217;re going to need a rocket(s) on the mothership anyway, leave the RATOs alone, and use a proper, throttle-able rocket in the tail. Modifying an existing airframe to do the job probably isn&#8217;t going to happen, I don&#8217;t think using a WK2 would be wise given the considerably different profile we&#8217;re flying (besides the difficulty of &#8216;where do we put the rockets?&#8217; I wouldn&#8217;t like the idea of offsetting them from the centerline too far!). So assume a purpose-built machine, probably not as efficient as a WK2,  but we can trade off on that for the benefits of optimal launch speeds and angles.</p>
<p>As before, fly up to a suitable ignition altitude,  then light the rocket on the mothership and spacecraft. The mothership&#8217;s motor could perhaps throttle to minimize the load on the pylon. Since we have a clean-sheet design, we&#8217;ve probably dealt with the issue of rocket exhausts. Alternatively, we could extend the pylon, placing the spacecraft further away from the mothership; this would also help with the pitch-up.<br />
As the pair accelerates, they pitch up, converting horizontal velocity to vertical velocity. Once the desired launch angle is reached, the craft separate. Now the spacecraft is developing little or no lift, but the mothership is still developing lots of lift. As well as this, the pair are still pitching up as separation occurs, so they naturally &#8216;fly apart&#8217;, in much the same way as fighter-bombers &#8216;toss&#8217; bombs towards a target. So separation is no issue.<br />
The spacecraft continues on it&#8217;s own trajectory now, but the mothership continues pitching over onto it&#8217;s back, probably with some thrust still coming from the rocket (to avoid slowing down and stalling over the top in the thin air). Once level, it rolls back upright, shuts down the rocket, and returns to base.</p>
<p>This should provide good flexibility of launch angle, launch speed (by using an appropriate pitch rate), and makes separation a non-issue.</p>
<p>But then I&#8217;m just a pilot, not an engineer&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on VTVL Airlaunched by Jonathan Goff</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7886</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Goff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 03:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7886</guid>
		<description>One thing worth remembering, is that there is experience with launching rocket like things off of wingy things...  People have been doing it for at least 50 years...  Recently even off of carbon fiber wingy things.  Some of the peopled variety and some of the unpeopled variety.  There may be scaling issues, but it&#039;s not entirely unknown territory.

~Jon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing worth remembering, is that there is experience with launching rocket like things off of wingy things&#8230;  People have been doing it for at least 50 years&#8230;  Recently even off of carbon fiber wingy things.  Some of the peopled variety and some of the unpeopled variety.  There may be scaling issues, but it&#8217;s not entirely unknown territory.</p>
<p>~Jon</p>
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		<title>Comment on VTVL Airlaunched by Trent Waddington</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7885</link>
		<dc:creator>Trent Waddington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 03:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7885</guid>
		<description>What would you simulate something like this in?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What would you simulate something like this in?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Shuttle Costs Per Month by Trent Waddington</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/shuttle-costs-per-month/comment-page-1/#comment-7884</link>
		<dc:creator>Trent Waddington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 02:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1513#comment-7884</guid>
		<description>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSChW9HxAvI</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSChW9HxAvI" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSChW9HxAvI</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on VTVL Airlaunched by john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7883</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 02:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7883</guid>
		<description>Many precautions. What I described could only happen after a considerable testing phase. Some thermal protection might be required on the aft section of the mother ship. The effects of the rocket plume on the mother ship flight controls will need considerable attention. The release mechanism with two vehicles thrusting at high subsonic speeds will be critical. And so on. This post is a potential lead on substantial improvement, not a blueprint for action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many precautions. What I described could only happen after a considerable testing phase. Some thermal protection might be required on the aft section of the mother ship. The effects of the rocket plume on the mother ship flight controls will need considerable attention. The release mechanism with two vehicles thrusting at high subsonic speeds will be critical. And so on. This post is a potential lead on substantial improvement, not a blueprint for action.</p>
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		<title>Comment on SpaceX Prediction by Danny Farnsworth</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/spacex-prediction/comment-page-2/#comment-7882</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny Farnsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 02:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1505#comment-7882</guid>
		<description>Pete,

Googaw&#039;s point, I think, is that space already is open.  We&#039;re using it right now.  What we&#039;re not doing is living up there.  Similarly, we&#039;re not living in Antarctica, the bottom of the ocean, or the Mojave desert (wait, nevermind, some are)... Space is a ridiculously difficult environment to live in; it puts the harshest environments here on the surface to shame, minus perhaps the interiors of active volcanoes and the bottom of the Mariana trench.  

We tend to congregate in places conducive to human life, and we generally only use extreme environments in ways that enhance that life.  For instance, in mountainous areas, most homes are built in the valleys, and we locate transmitters and radar on the mountain peaks.  It&#039;s certainly fun to go to Sunrise Peak overlooking Las Vegas, but quite conspicuously, nobody lives there.

That is not to say that there can&#039;t be an advantage to manned space flight.  There are some very productive things I&#039;d like to do in space that are not very conducive to automation with a 10 minute communication lag.  Getting into space in creatively cheap ways could very well stimulate demand that we haven&#039;t imagined yet.

Settling low-earth orbit is kind of like settling Sunrise Peak.  Unless you&#039;ve got some real competitive advantage in LEO that justifies the cost of sustaining life, besides the fact that you like it there, you can&#039;t sustain it.  And the only way it will become cost competitive is with a huge breakthrough in access to orbit, which quite frankly will not happen by optimizing rockets.  That doesn&#039;t mean using other space-based resources can&#039;t be economical within a much shorter timeframe.  It just means that living there will be like living on an off-shore oil rig, rather than being a nice vacation.  Like an outpost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete,</p>
<p>Googaw&#8217;s point, I think, is that space already is open.  We&#8217;re using it right now.  What we&#8217;re not doing is living up there.  Similarly, we&#8217;re not living in Antarctica, the bottom of the ocean, or the Mojave desert (wait, nevermind, some are)&#8230; Space is a ridiculously difficult environment to live in; it puts the harshest environments here on the surface to shame, minus perhaps the interiors of active volcanoes and the bottom of the Mariana trench.  </p>
<p>We tend to congregate in places conducive to human life, and we generally only use extreme environments in ways that enhance that life.  For instance, in mountainous areas, most homes are built in the valleys, and we locate transmitters and radar on the mountain peaks.  It&#8217;s certainly fun to go to Sunrise Peak overlooking Las Vegas, but quite conspicuously, nobody lives there.</p>
<p>That is not to say that there can&#8217;t be an advantage to manned space flight.  There are some very productive things I&#8217;d like to do in space that are not very conducive to automation with a 10 minute communication lag.  Getting into space in creatively cheap ways could very well stimulate demand that we haven&#8217;t imagined yet.</p>
<p>Settling low-earth orbit is kind of like settling Sunrise Peak.  Unless you&#8217;ve got some real competitive advantage in LEO that justifies the cost of sustaining life, besides the fact that you like it there, you can&#8217;t sustain it.  And the only way it will become cost competitive is with a huge breakthrough in access to orbit, which quite frankly will not happen by optimizing rockets.  That doesn&#8217;t mean using other space-based resources can&#8217;t be economical within a much shorter timeframe.  It just means that living there will be like living on an off-shore oil rig, rather than being a nice vacation.  Like an outpost.</p>
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		<title>Comment on VTVL Airlaunched by A_M_Swallow</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7881</link>
		<dc:creator>A_M_Swallow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7881</guid>
		<description>Do any precautions need taking to ensure that the rocket exhausts do not damage the other vehicle?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do any precautions need taking to ensure that the rocket exhausts do not damage the other vehicle?</p>
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		<title>Comment on VTVL Airlaunched by john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7880</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7880</guid>
		<description>The relatively shallow angle would certainly be easier and safer for the aircraft. I was fixated on an up and down suborbital flight when I wrote that which would be a much higher flight angle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The relatively shallow angle would certainly be easier and safer for the aircraft. I was fixated on an up and down suborbital flight when I wrote that which would be a much higher flight angle.</p>
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		<title>Comment on VTVL Airlaunched by Jonathan Goff</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7879</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Goff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7879</guid>
		<description>John,
This is somewhat close to what I&#039;ve been thinking.  A quick clarification though (I think you&#039;re understanding it right, but your description is semi-ambiguous):

1-It isn&#039;t &quot;attitude&quot; per se that you care about, but &quot;flight path angle&quot;.  Flight path angle is the angle from the horizontal to the *velocity vector*, whereas attitude could just be which way the nose is pointing.  
2-Ideally the flight path angle at separation isn&#039;t purely vertical or purely horizontal.  I&#039;m not positive about this (Kirk&#039;s the air launch trajectory guru on the blog), but I think what you want is the flight path angle you would&#039;ve gotten had you ground launched and built up to that speed and altitude.  Basically somewhere into the gravity turn portion of the flight.  My gut feeling says something in the 30-50 degrees range.
3-Ideally your attitude and flight path angle at separation would be really close to or identical to each other.

Not sure if the inversion is necessary or not.  It would be interesting to simulate and see which is better.  I don&#039;t have really good intuition for how wingy things work...

~Jon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,<br />
This is somewhat close to what I&#8217;ve been thinking.  A quick clarification though (I think you&#8217;re understanding it right, but your description is semi-ambiguous):</p>
<p>1-It isn&#8217;t &#8220;attitude&#8221; per se that you care about, but &#8220;flight path angle&#8221;.  Flight path angle is the angle from the horizontal to the *velocity vector*, whereas attitude could just be which way the nose is pointing.<br />
2-Ideally the flight path angle at separation isn&#8217;t purely vertical or purely horizontal.  I&#8217;m not positive about this (Kirk&#8217;s the air launch trajectory guru on the blog), but I think what you want is the flight path angle you would&#8217;ve gotten had you ground launched and built up to that speed and altitude.  Basically somewhere into the gravity turn portion of the flight.  My gut feeling says something in the 30-50 degrees range.<br />
3-Ideally your attitude and flight path angle at separation would be really close to or identical to each other.</p>
<p>Not sure if the inversion is necessary or not.  It would be interesting to simulate and see which is better.  I don&#8217;t have really good intuition for how wingy things work&#8230;</p>
<p>~Jon</p>
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		<title>Comment on Shuttle Costs Per Month by Danny Farnsworth</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/shuttle-costs-per-month/comment-page-1/#comment-7878</link>
		<dc:creator>Danny Farnsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1513#comment-7878</guid>
		<description>Marcel,

What does survival of the species have to do with the recession?  And what part of wasting resources (i.e. using more than you produce) will help real economic activity increase?  It&#039;s hard to follow an argument that jumps from make-work for some people in three or four states (Shuttle, Ares) to surviving what would otherwise kill us all.

Yes, the amount of money spent on military is too much.  Also, Americans spend a lot of money on video games.  Both of these facts are red herrings, distractions from the question of how best to use the fixed resources allotted to NASA, and whether the new allotment achieves better results compared to the old allotment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marcel,</p>
<p>What does survival of the species have to do with the recession?  And what part of wasting resources (i.e. using more than you produce) will help real economic activity increase?  It&#8217;s hard to follow an argument that jumps from make-work for some people in three or four states (Shuttle, Ares) to surviving what would otherwise kill us all.</p>
<p>Yes, the amount of money spent on military is too much.  Also, Americans spend a lot of money on video games.  Both of these facts are red herrings, distractions from the question of how best to use the fixed resources allotted to NASA, and whether the new allotment achieves better results compared to the old allotment.</p>
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