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	<title>Comments on: SSTO is a bad idea, but NTR SSTO is worse</title>
	<atom:link href="http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/06/ssto-ntr-bad/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/06/ssto-ntr-bad/</link>
	<description>Random Musings from the Warped Minds of Jonathan Goff, Ken Murphy, John Hare, and Kirk Sorensen</description>
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		<title>By: Jeff Wright</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/06/ssto-ntr-bad/comment-page-1/#comment-10096</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Dec 2010 21:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1604#comment-10096</guid>
		<description>Didn&#039;t the folks over and Andrews have a nuclear thermal approach to the Gryphon spaceplane? It was to be going to be a two-stager with LACE at first perhaps, and then there was talk about anuclear application down the road. So much for that then...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t the folks over and Andrews have a nuclear thermal approach to the Gryphon spaceplane? It was to be going to be a two-stager with LACE at first perhaps, and then there was talk about anuclear application down the road. So much for that then&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Wright</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/06/ssto-ntr-bad/comment-page-1/#comment-10052</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Dec 2010 21:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1604#comment-10052</guid>
		<description>I still prefere (non SSTO) NTR systems over this
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1690/1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still prefere (non SSTO) NTR systems over this<br />
<a href="http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1690/1" rel="nofollow">http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1690/1</a></p>
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		<title>By: Roderick Reilly</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/06/ssto-ntr-bad/comment-page-1/#comment-8830</link>
		<dc:creator>Roderick Reilly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jun 2010 20:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1604#comment-8830</guid>
		<description>Serves me right for wandering away, as I imagine this comment section is &quot;closed&quot; due to the late date.

Anyway, my comment is about the SSTO concept in general:
What really matters is not pure SSTO for its own sake, but an operational profile that amounts to the equivalent of SSTO. 

Putting a boost-phase drop tank into the design is the simplest way to reduce vehicle mass fraction for the orbiter itself. Even if you can come close to pure SSTO function in your design, it would still make sense to use a drop tank because it gives you more margin for a robust orbiter design and for more payload. 

Using an ejectable ablative nozzle insert is the simplest way to have a staged expansion ratio on the orbiter&#039;s engines (you use an upper stage regenerative nozzle as your baseline, with the ejectable ablative nozzle inserted in it for the boost phase expansion ratio).

You don&#039;t have to &quot;stage&quot; any additional engine packages, you can recover the drop tank, and the ejectable nozzle inserts are the only things you expend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Serves me right for wandering away, as I imagine this comment section is &#8220;closed&#8221; due to the late date.</p>
<p>Anyway, my comment is about the SSTO concept in general:<br />
What really matters is not pure SSTO for its own sake, but an operational profile that amounts to the equivalent of SSTO. </p>
<p>Putting a boost-phase drop tank into the design is the simplest way to reduce vehicle mass fraction for the orbiter itself. Even if you can come close to pure SSTO function in your design, it would still make sense to use a drop tank because it gives you more margin for a robust orbiter design and for more payload. </p>
<p>Using an ejectable ablative nozzle insert is the simplest way to have a staged expansion ratio on the orbiter&#8217;s engines (you use an upper stage regenerative nozzle as your baseline, with the ejectable ablative nozzle inserted in it for the boost phase expansion ratio).</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t have to &#8220;stage&#8221; any additional engine packages, you can recover the drop tank, and the ejectable nozzle inserts are the only things you expend.</p>
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		<title>By: Zach T.</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/06/ssto-ntr-bad/comment-page-1/#comment-8729</link>
		<dc:creator>Zach T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jun 2010 08:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1604#comment-8729</guid>
		<description>Thrust to weight ratios of much better then 10:1 should be possible with modern materials technology, Tungsten Cermite in particular should allow for very high thrust to weight ratios and more importantly be very durable so the ablation of fuel elements into the working fluid stream should be near zero. In my humble opinion the reactor ablation issue is the biggest engineering challenge to make an NTR for surface launch. 

It&#039;s unfortunate that the general public has such an irrational fear of nuclear power because I think in the long run that it&#039;s the only way we&#039;re ever going to do anything useful in space.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thrust to weight ratios of much better then 10:1 should be possible with modern materials technology, Tungsten Cermite in particular should allow for very high thrust to weight ratios and more importantly be very durable so the ablation of fuel elements into the working fluid stream should be near zero. In my humble opinion the reactor ablation issue is the biggest engineering challenge to make an NTR for surface launch. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s unfortunate that the general public has such an irrational fear of nuclear power because I think in the long run that it&#8217;s the only way we&#8217;re ever going to do anything useful in space.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Lorrey</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/06/ssto-ntr-bad/comment-page-1/#comment-8725</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Lorrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1604#comment-8725</guid>
		<description>anom,
&quot;I would also love to see a post discussing if SSTO is possible today using the existing 3,000-lb 1st stage of the SpaceX Falcon-1e or the 33,000-lb 1st stage of the Falcon-9. Both appear to exceed the 95% propellant mass fraction needed for SSTO with LOX/RP-1.&quot;

I actually proposed that they do an experiment with an Falcon 1e first stage and install an air augmented ram ejector around the engine, akin to the GNOM missile, running the Merlin a bit more fuel rich than normal. The GNOM allegedly achieved a throw weight and range equal to a standard missile twice its mass (though other than launch of a scaled version that confirmed these numbers, it remained on paper).

The F1e first stage should be SSTO ELV with almost no payload, but with a ram ejector installed should be able to put something useful in orbit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>anom,<br />
&#8220;I would also love to see a post discussing if SSTO is possible today using the existing 3,000-lb 1st stage of the SpaceX Falcon-1e or the 33,000-lb 1st stage of the Falcon-9. Both appear to exceed the 95% propellant mass fraction needed for SSTO with LOX/RP-1.&#8221;</p>
<p>I actually proposed that they do an experiment with an Falcon 1e first stage and install an air augmented ram ejector around the engine, akin to the GNOM missile, running the Merlin a bit more fuel rich than normal. The GNOM allegedly achieved a throw weight and range equal to a standard missile twice its mass (though other than launch of a scaled version that confirmed these numbers, it remained on paper).</p>
<p>The F1e first stage should be SSTO ELV with almost no payload, but with a ram ejector installed should be able to put something useful in orbit.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk Sorensen</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/06/ssto-ntr-bad/comment-page-1/#comment-8716</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk Sorensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jun 2010 19:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1604#comment-8716</guid>
		<description>Mike Lorrey, I included my equations and the assumptions I used so that you can run the calculations yourself and report back on results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike Lorrey, I included my equations and the assumptions I used so that you can run the calculations yourself and report back on results.</p>
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		<title>By: Roga</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/06/ssto-ntr-bad/comment-page-1/#comment-8714</link>
		<dc:creator>Roga</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jun 2010 17:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1604#comment-8714</guid>
		<description>You don&#039;t need T/W &gt; 1 if you do horizontal takeoff.  In a chemical rocket, thrust is relatively cheap because engine mass/lb thrust is very small - so your design closes around lots of thrust and a fast burn.  For an NTR, you would be much better off taking the mass hit on aerodynamic lift I suspect.  

That runs into arguments about wings on scramjets, but this is a different argument.  Scramjets don&#039;t close for two reasons that have nothing to do with the aerodynamic lift penalty - 1) They can&#039;t start or finish the ascent, so you end up needing a separate rocket anyway; and 2) They can&#039;t even be used to their physical limit because the Earth curves away and you lose atmosphere too quickly.  An NTR does not have these problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You don&#8217;t need T/W &gt; 1 if you do horizontal takeoff.  In a chemical rocket, thrust is relatively cheap because engine mass/lb thrust is very small &#8211; so your design closes around lots of thrust and a fast burn.  For an NTR, you would be much better off taking the mass hit on aerodynamic lift I suspect.  </p>
<p>That runs into arguments about wings on scramjets, but this is a different argument.  Scramjets don&#8217;t close for two reasons that have nothing to do with the aerodynamic lift penalty &#8211; 1) They can&#8217;t start or finish the ascent, so you end up needing a separate rocket anyway; and 2) They can&#8217;t even be used to their physical limit because the Earth curves away and you lose atmosphere too quickly.  An NTR does not have these problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Lorrey</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/06/ssto-ntr-bad/comment-page-1/#comment-8712</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Lorrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jun 2010 04:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1604#comment-8712</guid>
		<description>Try your numbers with NERVA 2 T/W of 7.5, and an air augmented ram ejector so you get thrust from combustion of the exhaust with atmospheric O2 (for an Isp of 3500).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Try your numbers with NERVA 2 T/W of 7.5, and an air augmented ram ejector so you get thrust from combustion of the exhaust with atmospheric O2 (for an Isp of 3500).</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Davis</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/06/ssto-ntr-bad/comment-page-1/#comment-8711</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jun 2010 03:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1604#comment-8711</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;That said, at least some of the DUMBO rocket proponents were claiming T/W ratios much better than 10 were feasible (I’ve heard claims as high as 50, but I don’t know if those came from the original researchers or the fanboys) with their approach.&lt;/em&gt;

The DUMBO fanboys seem blissfully unaware that the higher performance comes with a huge relaxation of fuel element containment criteria. Unlike the NERVA design, fission fragment/fuel element contamination of the exhaust was an integral feature of the DUMBO concept.

Needless to say, such a feature is (and indeed should be) a complete nonstarter today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>That said, at least some of the DUMBO rocket proponents were claiming T/W ratios much better than 10 were feasible (I’ve heard claims as high as 50, but I don’t know if those came from the original researchers or the fanboys) with their approach.</em></p>
<p>The DUMBO fanboys seem blissfully unaware that the higher performance comes with a huge relaxation of fuel element containment criteria. Unlike the NERVA design, fission fragment/fuel element contamination of the exhaust was an integral feature of the DUMBO concept.</p>
<p>Needless to say, such a feature is (and indeed should be) a complete nonstarter today.</p>
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		<title>By: anom</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/06/ssto-ntr-bad/comment-page-1/#comment-8710</link>
		<dc:creator>anom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jun 2010 00:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1604#comment-8710</guid>
		<description>Kirk,

Good post.

The Timberwind nuclear thermal upper stage replacing the Centaur LOX/LH2 engine was supposed to have a T/W of 30; so it could work for your NTR SSTO.

I think that the only issue with posts like this is that there are thousands of assumptions that go into a rocket making it to orbit and most of these assumption have not been tested recently.

NTR SSTO actually becomes a good idea with a high T/W, but most people assume that a high T/W is impossible for nuclear thermal because they are not experts in what is possible for nuclear technology.

I would love to see a post about the high T/W particle bed nuclear thermal rockets like Timberwind which were researched in the 1980&#039;s at a T/W over 30. Are they viable today with some funding?

I would also love to see a post on whether or not nuclear fission power in space can reach the 1 kg/kw threshold needed for 39-day voyages to Mars discussed for the VASIMR engine and also researched for Space Lasers in the 1980&#039;s. The low-weight radiators and nuclear fission reactors for this supposedly already exist today, but most people just dismiss the entire concept of VASIMR and multi-megawatt nuclear-powered lasers because they assume that it is impossible for us to rapidly improve what has already flown in space by an order of magnitude or so (eventhough the success of the Falcon-9 has shown that you can do things different by orders of magnitude and be successful).

I would also love to see a post discussing if SSTO is possible today using the existing 3,000-lb 1st stage of the SpaceX Falcon-1e or the 33,000-lb 1st stage of the Falcon-9. Both appear to exceed the 95% propellant mass fraction needed for SSTO with LOX/RP-1.

How far is Jon Goff and Masten away from high T/W engines and structures for SSTO......probably very far, but that would also be a great post.

Your post has actually done a good job of showing why NTR SSTO is a good idea......for T/W above 20.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kirk,</p>
<p>Good post.</p>
<p>The Timberwind nuclear thermal upper stage replacing the Centaur LOX/LH2 engine was supposed to have a T/W of 30; so it could work for your NTR SSTO.</p>
<p>I think that the only issue with posts like this is that there are thousands of assumptions that go into a rocket making it to orbit and most of these assumption have not been tested recently.</p>
<p>NTR SSTO actually becomes a good idea with a high T/W, but most people assume that a high T/W is impossible for nuclear thermal because they are not experts in what is possible for nuclear technology.</p>
<p>I would love to see a post about the high T/W particle bed nuclear thermal rockets like Timberwind which were researched in the 1980&#8242;s at a T/W over 30. Are they viable today with some funding?</p>
<p>I would also love to see a post on whether or not nuclear fission power in space can reach the 1 kg/kw threshold needed for 39-day voyages to Mars discussed for the VASIMR engine and also researched for Space Lasers in the 1980&#8242;s. The low-weight radiators and nuclear fission reactors for this supposedly already exist today, but most people just dismiss the entire concept of VASIMR and multi-megawatt nuclear-powered lasers because they assume that it is impossible for us to rapidly improve what has already flown in space by an order of magnitude or so (eventhough the success of the Falcon-9 has shown that you can do things different by orders of magnitude and be successful).</p>
<p>I would also love to see a post discussing if SSTO is possible today using the existing 3,000-lb 1st stage of the SpaceX Falcon-1e or the 33,000-lb 1st stage of the Falcon-9. Both appear to exceed the 95% propellant mass fraction needed for SSTO with LOX/RP-1.</p>
<p>How far is Jon Goff and Masten away from high T/W engines and structures for SSTO&#8230;&#8230;probably very far, but that would also be a great post.</p>
<p>Your post has actually done a good job of showing why NTR SSTO is a good idea&#8230;&#8230;for T/W above 20.</p>
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