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	<title>Comments on: VTVL Airlaunched</title>
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	<description>Random Musings from the Warped Minds of Jonathan Goff, Ken Murphy, John Hare, and Kirk Sorensen</description>
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		<title>By: Redchrome</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-8075</link>
		<dc:creator>Redchrome</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 00:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-8075</guid>
		<description>The concept reminds me of a sci-fi story I read once, written in the very early 50s. The story was about the pilot of a toroidal rocketship that carried the actual space vehicle inside the &#039;hole&#039; in the center. The downside of this design of course is that you need a large number of engines on the toroidal ship; and thrust needs to be balanced across them. Not sure how practical it is; but it&#039;s definitely been considered for a long time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The concept reminds me of a sci-fi story I read once, written in the very early 50s. The story was about the pilot of a toroidal rocketship that carried the actual space vehicle inside the &#8216;hole&#8217; in the center. The downside of this design of course is that you need a large number of engines on the toroidal ship; and thrust needs to be balanced across them. Not sure how practical it is; but it&#8217;s definitely been considered for a long time.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy Campbell</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7979</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 04:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7979</guid>
		<description>As an FYI as someone with 15+ years experiance with Air Force aircraft missiles a few things:
Unlike you see in a lot of animations and drawings/art the missiles on an aircraft don&#039;t normally &quot;drop-the-fire&quot; the exception being some of the larger missiles such as the Phoenix, ASAT, LGM-30 etc.
The majority of relativly smaller missiles (AGM-65, AMRAAM, AIM-9X, etc) all fire thier motors while attached to an aircraft launch rail and THEN accelerate away from the aircraft.

The larger missiles have more powerful rocket engines and therefore larger and hotter exhaust plumes that do &quot;BAD&quot; things to rather sensistive things like aircraft skin panels.

Some of the earlier aircraft missile systems, (Genie, FALCON, and RASCAL come to mind) where launched using an extending rail system to place the missile at a slight distance from the aircraft to lessen the exhausts plume effects while still retainaing &quot;positive&quot; launch control of the missile during firing.
It should be noted that for a NON-COMBAT airframe you can add such things as spray-on ablative to ward off damage but you still want at least SOME distance between the airframes when the rockets light because of the interactions between the airframe slipstreams and the exhaust plume can have the hot exhaust following the slipsteam in some weird directions.
(This is a major reason you can&#039;t &#039;fire-up&#039; a rocket INSIDE an airframe like a C-141/5/17 because the slipstream around the open cargo bay tends to funnle the exhaust into a nice recirculation plume back into the cargo bay :::bleH:::)

The current &quot;lanyard-and-trapeze&quot; system of the AirLaunch/T-Space paper on choosing a carrier aircraft seems about the best system since it reveals how modifications to the 747-200 carrier aircraft are very similar to those need for conversion to an airial fire-tanker leading to a possilbe &quot;triple-income&quot; between launches with using the carreir aircraft as a fire-tanker, air freighter or launch carrier.

I should mention that both Glenn Olson and Dani Eder both proposed using a jet-powered VTVL (Olson) and jet-launch-assist (Eder) to enhance the abilitiys of launch vehicles. AS soon as I can unearth my information on the concepts I&#039;ll post the summeries here.

Randy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an FYI as someone with 15+ years experiance with Air Force aircraft missiles a few things:<br />
Unlike you see in a lot of animations and drawings/art the missiles on an aircraft don&#8217;t normally &#8220;drop-the-fire&#8221; the exception being some of the larger missiles such as the Phoenix, ASAT, LGM-30 etc.<br />
The majority of relativly smaller missiles (AGM-65, AMRAAM, AIM-9X, etc) all fire thier motors while attached to an aircraft launch rail and THEN accelerate away from the aircraft.</p>
<p>The larger missiles have more powerful rocket engines and therefore larger and hotter exhaust plumes that do &#8220;BAD&#8221; things to rather sensistive things like aircraft skin panels.</p>
<p>Some of the earlier aircraft missile systems, (Genie, FALCON, and RASCAL come to mind) where launched using an extending rail system to place the missile at a slight distance from the aircraft to lessen the exhausts plume effects while still retainaing &#8220;positive&#8221; launch control of the missile during firing.<br />
It should be noted that for a NON-COMBAT airframe you can add such things as spray-on ablative to ward off damage but you still want at least SOME distance between the airframes when the rockets light because of the interactions between the airframe slipstreams and the exhaust plume can have the hot exhaust following the slipsteam in some weird directions.<br />
(This is a major reason you can&#8217;t &#8216;fire-up&#8217; a rocket INSIDE an airframe like a C-141/5/17 because the slipstream around the open cargo bay tends to funnle the exhaust into a nice recirculation plume back into the cargo bay :::bleH:::)</p>
<p>The current &#8220;lanyard-and-trapeze&#8221; system of the AirLaunch/T-Space paper on choosing a carrier aircraft seems about the best system since it reveals how modifications to the 747-200 carrier aircraft are very similar to those need for conversion to an airial fire-tanker leading to a possilbe &#8220;triple-income&#8221; between launches with using the carreir aircraft as a fire-tanker, air freighter or launch carrier.</p>
<p>I should mention that both Glenn Olson and Dani Eder both proposed using a jet-powered VTVL (Olson) and jet-launch-assist (Eder) to enhance the abilitiys of launch vehicles. AS soon as I can unearth my information on the concepts I&#8217;ll post the summeries here.</p>
<p>Randy</p>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7977</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 22:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7977</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been thinking about doing a post on an air launched two stage concept. Fly north or south out of Hawaii to get the right launch inclination for the first rocket stage to land in Mojave with the upper going to the right orbit with minimal plane change losses. For various high inclination launches, fly east or west out of Hawaii and recover at Kodiak. If the first stage can land well down range and be flown back with minimal hassle, then the attractions of supersonic air launch fade fairly rapidly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking about doing a post on an air launched two stage concept. Fly north or south out of Hawaii to get the right launch inclination for the first rocket stage to land in Mojave with the upper going to the right orbit with minimal plane change losses. For various high inclination launches, fly east or west out of Hawaii and recover at Kodiak. If the first stage can land well down range and be flown back with minimal hassle, then the attractions of supersonic air launch fade fairly rapidly.</p>
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		<title>By: Godzilla</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7975</link>
		<dc:creator>Godzilla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7975</guid>
		<description>IIRC the F-15 ASAT was launched from a high angle as well. Like 65 degrees. However the second stage rocket ignited after being dropped. Probably not a good idea to ignite a solid while it is still attached to the carrier aircraft. Ahem. I suspect the stresses on the airframe (or even worse, the pilot) would be too great.

The Mig-25 also reached Mach 3 and IIRC it did not use a lot of titanium. They used nickel steel instead. Heavier but cheaper. Nickel alloys are used in turbine blades so they can withstand a lot of heat. However going at that speed destroyed the engines. SR-71 had a hybrid turbojet/ramjet, not a turbojet.

It is a shame they destroyed the tooling for the SR-71. Perhaps we would have less sedate fighter planes now. There was a kind of regression on fighter speed since then, although thrust-to-weight ratios in jet engines got so much better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IIRC the F-15 ASAT was launched from a high angle as well. Like 65 degrees. However the second stage rocket ignited after being dropped. Probably not a good idea to ignite a solid while it is still attached to the carrier aircraft. Ahem. I suspect the stresses on the airframe (or even worse, the pilot) would be too great.</p>
<p>The Mig-25 also reached Mach 3 and IIRC it did not use a lot of titanium. They used nickel steel instead. Heavier but cheaper. Nickel alloys are used in turbine blades so they can withstand a lot of heat. However going at that speed destroyed the engines. SR-71 had a hybrid turbojet/ramjet, not a turbojet.</p>
<p>It is a shame they destroyed the tooling for the SR-71. Perhaps we would have less sedate fighter planes now. There was a kind of regression on fighter speed since then, although thrust-to-weight ratios in jet engines got so much better.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Lorrey</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7965</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Lorrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7965</guid>
		<description>C Garner

&quot;
Mike said: 
“I’ve witnessed them returning from flights on multiple occasions with the mach meters pegged over mach 3. Significantly over.”

I have not heard this before, but it does not surprise me! I know ex-A-4 pilots who flew them beyond Mach-1 on occasion. Getting certified to do this regularly on a commercial operation is another matter, perhaps!

I wasn’t considering titanium; I would consider that a material for thermal resistance if not thermal protection. It’s use would drive up costs significantly anyway, wouldn’t it? (compared with say, aluminium or conventional composites) No doubt it could be used, if the cost wasn’t a concern.&quot;

Titanium isn&#039;t that expensive a material. Especially not today. My father, before he retired, was an engineer at Sturm Ruger, who, in addition to firearms, made Calloway&#039;s Big Bertha golf club heads, in investment cast titanium. Smith &amp; Wesson and Taurus both make pistol frames from titanium in a few models. Theres plenty of consumer products that use the metal today, from watches to golf clubs and beyond. The Russians in particular have some serious expertise in manufacturing with it. Once the cold war ended the cost of titanium material and knowledge about its manufacture dropped in cost in the west significantly.

You do have to know how to machine it, tooling for that can be a little more expensive, but really, the cost of materials and mill bits is hardly a percent of a percent in the grand scheme of a development project. Personally in my experience, composites are the expensive items.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>C Garner</p>
<p>&#8221;<br />
Mike said:<br />
“I’ve witnessed them returning from flights on multiple occasions with the mach meters pegged over mach 3. Significantly over.”</p>
<p>I have not heard this before, but it does not surprise me! I know ex-A-4 pilots who flew them beyond Mach-1 on occasion. Getting certified to do this regularly on a commercial operation is another matter, perhaps!</p>
<p>I wasn’t considering titanium; I would consider that a material for thermal resistance if not thermal protection. It’s use would drive up costs significantly anyway, wouldn’t it? (compared with say, aluminium or conventional composites) No doubt it could be used, if the cost wasn’t a concern.&#8221;</p>
<p>Titanium isn&#8217;t that expensive a material. Especially not today. My father, before he retired, was an engineer at Sturm Ruger, who, in addition to firearms, made Calloway&#8217;s Big Bertha golf club heads, in investment cast titanium. Smith &amp; Wesson and Taurus both make pistol frames from titanium in a few models. Theres plenty of consumer products that use the metal today, from watches to golf clubs and beyond. The Russians in particular have some serious expertise in manufacturing with it. Once the cold war ended the cost of titanium material and knowledge about its manufacture dropped in cost in the west significantly.</p>
<p>You do have to know how to machine it, tooling for that can be a little more expensive, but really, the cost of materials and mill bits is hardly a percent of a percent in the grand scheme of a development project. Personally in my experience, composites are the expensive items.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7957</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:33:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7957</guid>
		<description>Quick in the head estimate, I think the orbital track should only miss by a few hundred mile on average once a day, depending. Not that this would have to all be mitigated by the carrier aircraft.

If launching to an equatorial space station, it could potentially do so every say three hours from one launch site without any range.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quick in the head estimate, I think the orbital track should only miss by a few hundred mile on average once a day, depending. Not that this would have to all be mitigated by the carrier aircraft.</p>
<p>If launching to an equatorial space station, it could potentially do so every say three hours from one launch site without any range.</p>
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		<title>By: jv</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7956</link>
		<dc:creator>jv</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7956</guid>
		<description>What would be the required range of the carrier aircraft to be able to launch to the space station every day of the year?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What would be the required range of the carrier aircraft to be able to launch to the space station every day of the year?</p>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7951</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:29:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7951</guid>
		<description>Of course, cost should always be a concern. I really like Pete&#039;s line.

&lt;i&gt;The rocket equation makes for a good start, but the economic equation makes for a better finish.  &lt;i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, cost should always be a concern. I really like Pete&#8217;s line.</p>
<p><i>The rocket equation makes for a good start, but the economic equation makes for a better finish.  </i><i></i></p>
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		<title>By: C Garner</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7950</link>
		<dc:creator>C Garner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 03:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7950</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’ve witnessed them returning from flights on multiple occasions with the mach meters pegged over mach 3. Significantly over.&quot;
I have not heard this before, but it does not surprise me! I know ex-A-4 pilots who flew them beyond Mach-1 on occasion. Getting certified to do this regularly on a commercial operation is another matter, perhaps!

I wasn&#039;t considering titanium; I would consider that a material for thermal resistance if not thermal protection. It&#039;s use would drive up costs significantly anyway, wouldn&#039;t it? (compared with say, aluminium or conventional composites) No doubt it could be used, if the cost wasn&#039;t a concern.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I’ve witnessed them returning from flights on multiple occasions with the mach meters pegged over mach 3. Significantly over.&#8221;<br />
I have not heard this before, but it does not surprise me! I know ex-A-4 pilots who flew them beyond Mach-1 on occasion. Getting certified to do this regularly on a commercial operation is another matter, perhaps!</p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t considering titanium; I would consider that a material for thermal resistance if not thermal protection. It&#8217;s use would drive up costs significantly anyway, wouldn&#8217;t it? (compared with say, aluminium or conventional composites) No doubt it could be used, if the cost wasn&#8217;t a concern.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Lorrey</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/03/vtvl-airlaunched/comment-page-1/#comment-7945</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Lorrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1518#comment-7945</guid>
		<description>Speed tolerance with aircraft and materials is highly subjective relative to altitude and time exposed.... Note, for instance, the FIRST project, a rogallo wing, inflated spar, made from steel wire cloth impregnated with silicone.  Yeah, &#039;fluffiness&#039; is very important.

That said, titanium skin and frame with SHARP leading edge and nose cone materials allows for mach 7 flight at 100k ft. 

Or weren&#039;t you counting titanium as a traditional aerospace material? (and SHARP has been in use since the early 70&#039;s in some &#039;cough&#039; aerospace applications, so thats a pretty good tradition too)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speed tolerance with aircraft and materials is highly subjective relative to altitude and time exposed&#8230;. Note, for instance, the FIRST project, a rogallo wing, inflated spar, made from steel wire cloth impregnated with silicone.  Yeah, &#8216;fluffiness&#8217; is very important.</p>
<p>That said, titanium skin and frame with SHARP leading edge and nose cone materials allows for mach 7 flight at 100k ft. </p>
<p>Or weren&#8217;t you counting titanium as a traditional aerospace material? (and SHARP has been in use since the early 70&#8242;s in some &#8216;cough&#8217; aerospace applications, so thats a pretty good tradition too)</p>
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