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	<title>Comments on: Happy New Year</title>
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	<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/01/happy-new-year/</link>
	<description>Random Musings from the Warped Minds of Jonathan Goff, Ken Murphy, John Hare, and Kirk Sorensen</description>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/01/happy-new-year/comment-page-1/#comment-6972</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 23:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1350#comment-6972</guid>
		<description>Titan,
I looked at your site a bit and I would have the same problem there as I mention in this post here. It is an open forum that is not protected freedom of speech. If I discuss serious technical issues there, ITAR makes me a lawbreaker. Your main guy seems to be from Australia. While he might know more about the subject than I do, discussing it is arms export in the legal sense being discussed here. Keep aiming high.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Titan,<br />
I looked at your site a bit and I would have the same problem there as I mention in this post here. It is an open forum that is not protected freedom of speech. If I discuss serious technical issues there, ITAR makes me a lawbreaker. Your main guy seems to be from Australia. While he might know more about the subject than I do, discussing it is arms export in the legal sense being discussed here. Keep aiming high.</p>
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		<title>By: Titan</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/01/happy-new-year/comment-page-1/#comment-6963</link>
		<dc:creator>Titan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 20:38:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1350#comment-6963</guid>
		<description>John, 

I don&#039;t know how to directly contact you so I am hoping that you will see this message. I am a member of CSTART, the Collaborative Space Travel And Research Team, and we would absolutely love to have you on our team if you have the desire. Our main project is the development of a system that can safely deliver and return one human to the Moon. Here is our most current concept: http://i.imgur.com/2pJgE.jpg 
Please visit us at http://cstart.org/forum/ if you think that you may be interested in working with us.

-Titan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how to directly contact you so I am hoping that you will see this message. I am a member of CSTART, the Collaborative Space Travel And Research Team, and we would absolutely love to have you on our team if you have the desire. Our main project is the development of a system that can safely deliver and return one human to the Moon. Here is our most current concept: <a href="http://i.imgur.com/2pJgE.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://i.imgur.com/2pJgE.jpg</a><br />
Please visit us at <a href="http://cstart.org/forum/" rel="nofollow">http://cstart.org/forum/</a> if you think that you may be interested in working with us.</p>
<p>-Titan</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Lorrey</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/01/happy-new-year/comment-page-1/#comment-6962</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Lorrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 12:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1350#comment-6962</guid>
		<description>Good points Eric,
Post 9/11, I demonstrated how easy it is to learn the needed skills to replicate 9/11 merely by downloading and using flight sim software like x-plane or microsoft flight sim, which can simulate accurately all commercial airliners with high fidelity. Taking off, gaining altitude, and setting a preplanned course of waypoints in the GPS autopilot is relatively easy to learn and once accomplished fully replicates 9/11 even allowing one to strike a given building at a preselected floor number provided you know its altitude. The 9/11 hijackers took the expensive and risky route by going to flight schools, risks they didn&#039;t need to take and which resulted in Moussaui getting popped, almost blowing the whole operation.

Even in the paranoiacally anti-freedom post-9/11 world, has any effort been made to limit the usage of flight sim software or preventing it being downloaded over the net? No not at all, even though they should clearly be categorized as controlled guidance systems under ITAR. However, they are not, because limiting such access would not prevent enemy operatives from gaining the desired skills.

Based on this, I think any position that claims that discussing rocketry online is an ITAR violation is a position made by an extremely narrow reading of law with zero appreciation for context and conditions. In order to trigger ITAR, IMHO, would require that foreign based opponents of the US gain knowledge from such forums which is not freely available elsewhere (i.e. such as via books freely available from amazon, or googlable websites, etc).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points Eric,<br />
Post 9/11, I demonstrated how easy it is to learn the needed skills to replicate 9/11 merely by downloading and using flight sim software like x-plane or microsoft flight sim, which can simulate accurately all commercial airliners with high fidelity. Taking off, gaining altitude, and setting a preplanned course of waypoints in the GPS autopilot is relatively easy to learn and once accomplished fully replicates 9/11 even allowing one to strike a given building at a preselected floor number provided you know its altitude. The 9/11 hijackers took the expensive and risky route by going to flight schools, risks they didn&#8217;t need to take and which resulted in Moussaui getting popped, almost blowing the whole operation.</p>
<p>Even in the paranoiacally anti-freedom post-9/11 world, has any effort been made to limit the usage of flight sim software or preventing it being downloaded over the net? No not at all, even though they should clearly be categorized as controlled guidance systems under ITAR. However, they are not, because limiting such access would not prevent enemy operatives from gaining the desired skills.</p>
<p>Based on this, I think any position that claims that discussing rocketry online is an ITAR violation is a position made by an extremely narrow reading of law with zero appreciation for context and conditions. In order to trigger ITAR, IMHO, would require that foreign based opponents of the US gain knowledge from such forums which is not freely available elsewhere (i.e. such as via books freely available from amazon, or googlable websites, etc).</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Collins</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/01/happy-new-year/comment-page-1/#comment-6958</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 22:59:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1350#comment-6958</guid>
		<description>First of all, in the American Justice System, there is the basic assumption of &quot;innocent until proven guilty&quot;.  When this is taken into consideration along with the basic rights to freedom of speech, there should be a fairly wide range of discourse which is either protected, or would be very difficult for a prosecutor to obtain a conviction against you.  Unfortunately, there appears to be more than just the criminal justice system at work here in the case of alleged ITAR violations.  It would appear that fines and professional sanctions also work very well at making people very paranoid.

On the other hand, there is the thought that none of us would want to find us in the position that certain flight instructors in Florida found themselves in during late 2001.  I&#039;m sure they thought there would be no harm in teaching properly credentialed foreign nationals how to pilot 747 aircraft.  The fact that they could not have know how certain individuals would apply that knowledge probably offers little comfort to them now.  As far as I know, none of these instructors found themselves facing prosecution for what happened.  They were probably investigated pretty heavily, but I do not recall if any of the instructors were found to be part of the plot to fly planes into buildings.

So, I can&#039;t see how perfectly harmless discussion of plausible technologies for potential space applications on the open internet can be any more dangerous to national security than say... teaching foreign nationals advanced science and engineering topics in our universities.  There is no telling how that knowledge will be applied in the future, but that does not prevent us from acting in good faith in the present.

Now I do agree that there should be some reasonable controls put on certain technologies that are highly specialized (i.e. not already widely available) and with obvious military applications, but to continue to suppress such a wide variety of advanced technologies with primarily peaceful applications is counter productive to the nation&#039;s economy and potentially crippling to honest scientific discourse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, in the American Justice System, there is the basic assumption of &#8220;innocent until proven guilty&#8221;.  When this is taken into consideration along with the basic rights to freedom of speech, there should be a fairly wide range of discourse which is either protected, or would be very difficult for a prosecutor to obtain a conviction against you.  Unfortunately, there appears to be more than just the criminal justice system at work here in the case of alleged ITAR violations.  It would appear that fines and professional sanctions also work very well at making people very paranoid.</p>
<p>On the other hand, there is the thought that none of us would want to find us in the position that certain flight instructors in Florida found themselves in during late 2001.  I&#8217;m sure they thought there would be no harm in teaching properly credentialed foreign nationals how to pilot 747 aircraft.  The fact that they could not have know how certain individuals would apply that knowledge probably offers little comfort to them now.  As far as I know, none of these instructors found themselves facing prosecution for what happened.  They were probably investigated pretty heavily, but I do not recall if any of the instructors were found to be part of the plot to fly planes into buildings.</p>
<p>So, I can&#8217;t see how perfectly harmless discussion of plausible technologies for potential space applications on the open internet can be any more dangerous to national security than say&#8230; teaching foreign nationals advanced science and engineering topics in our universities.  There is no telling how that knowledge will be applied in the future, but that does not prevent us from acting in good faith in the present.</p>
<p>Now I do agree that there should be some reasonable controls put on certain technologies that are highly specialized (i.e. not already widely available) and with obvious military applications, but to continue to suppress such a wide variety of advanced technologies with primarily peaceful applications is counter productive to the nation&#8217;s economy and potentially crippling to honest scientific discourse.</p>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/01/happy-new-year/comment-page-1/#comment-6949</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 21:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1350#comment-6949</guid>
		<description>Pete, this is my lie so let me tell it without confusing the issue with facts like you not being a secret furrin spy. :-) I&#039;m not saying that other countries don&#039;t have their problems that are in many cases worse than ours. In that regard, my point is something like that it is wrong to slap your wife even if almost everybody else beats their wives up.

Trent, thanks for the link. What I would like to know is how far spaceflight control goes toward matching that attitude.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete, this is my lie so let me tell it without confusing the issue with facts like you not being a secret furrin spy. <img src='http://selenianboondocks.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  I&#8217;m not saying that other countries don&#8217;t have their problems that are in many cases worse than ours. In that regard, my point is something like that it is wrong to slap your wife even if almost everybody else beats their wives up.</p>
<p>Trent, thanks for the link. What I would like to know is how far spaceflight control goes toward matching that attitude.</p>
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		<title>By: Trent Waddington</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/01/happy-new-year/comment-page-1/#comment-6945</link>
		<dc:creator>Trent Waddington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 01:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1350#comment-6945</guid>
		<description>If you want to know what kind of thing you&#039;re dealing with when it comes to ITAR, read this:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/cardozo.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want to know what kind of thing you&#8217;re dealing with when it comes to ITAR, read this:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/cardozo.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/cardozo.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/01/happy-new-year/comment-page-1/#comment-6944</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 22:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1350#comment-6944</guid>
		<description>Well I can not say that my identity is any secret... 

I worked in the US 2007-2008 (alternative energy), and gained a little more appreciation for the practical realities of the US. ITAR is silly and highly inconvenient, but it is no more or less so than a great many other manifestations of government (immigration, health care, etc.). It would be nice to see reform (ITAR isolates and hurts the US - an own goal), but I am not holding my breath. I can still speak freely and there are lots of interesting things that are not ITAR sensitive. And it is not like any other country is perfect either, even with ITAR, New Space is still primarily happening in the US - and for good reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I can not say that my identity is any secret&#8230; </p>
<p>I worked in the US 2007-2008 (alternative energy), and gained a little more appreciation for the practical realities of the US. ITAR is silly and highly inconvenient, but it is no more or less so than a great many other manifestations of government (immigration, health care, etc.). It would be nice to see reform (ITAR isolates and hurts the US &#8211; an own goal), but I am not holding my breath. I can still speak freely and there are lots of interesting things that are not ITAR sensitive. And it is not like any other country is perfect either, even with ITAR, New Space is still primarily happening in the US &#8211; and for good reason.</p>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/01/happy-new-year/comment-page-1/#comment-6939</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 11:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1350#comment-6939</guid>
		<description>The laws as applied are stupid, but telling them to shove it can lead to a long stay in a small room with undesirable room mates. You won&#039;t be doing anything to correct the bad law while you are in there. You can have my share.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The laws as applied are stupid, but telling them to shove it can lead to a long stay in a small room with undesirable room mates. You won&#8217;t be doing anything to correct the bad law while you are in there. You can have my share.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Lorrey</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/01/happy-new-year/comment-page-1/#comment-6936</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Lorrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 05:56:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1350#comment-6936</guid>
		<description>I would argue that OldSpace is throwing ITAR around in an attempt to bottle up and restrict the market of Newspace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would argue that OldSpace is throwing ITAR around in an attempt to bottle up and restrict the market of Newspace.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Lorrey</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2010/01/happy-new-year/comment-page-1/#comment-6935</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Lorrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 05:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1350#comment-6935</guid>
		<description>You resist the tyranny by refusing to cooperate, you tell em to take this law and shove it. When the feds made 128 bit encryption web browsers an illegal armament that was prohibited to be exported (despite the factoid that the furriners already had superior crypto) I got the RS4 encryption algorithm in perl tatooed on my body so when I flew I was a controlled munition. So did thousands of others. Finally the gummint gave up trying to restrict crypto technology. When SCOTUS allowed New London to seize Kelo&#039;s home to give it to a private developer, I and my friends responded by proposing eminent domaining the vacation homes of Breyer and Souter in NH.

WRT missile technology, that horse is long since out of the barn. Continuing restrictions when anything needed can be bought on the international market from north korea, pakistan, and other countries, is plainly ludicrous. Like the old crypto restrictions, all the current restrictions do is restrain legitimate commercial trade. The crooks already have what is being restricted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You resist the tyranny by refusing to cooperate, you tell em to take this law and shove it. When the feds made 128 bit encryption web browsers an illegal armament that was prohibited to be exported (despite the factoid that the furriners already had superior crypto) I got the RS4 encryption algorithm in perl tatooed on my body so when I flew I was a controlled munition. So did thousands of others. Finally the gummint gave up trying to restrict crypto technology. When SCOTUS allowed New London to seize Kelo&#8217;s home to give it to a private developer, I and my friends responded by proposing eminent domaining the vacation homes of Breyer and Souter in NH.</p>
<p>WRT missile technology, that horse is long since out of the barn. Continuing restrictions when anything needed can be bought on the international market from north korea, pakistan, and other countries, is plainly ludicrous. Like the old crypto restrictions, all the current restrictions do is restrain legitimate commercial trade. The crooks already have what is being restricted.</p>
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