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	<title>Comments on: Smog Solar Engine</title>
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	<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/10/smog-solar-engine/</link>
	<description>Random Musings from the Warped Minds of Jonathan Goff, Ken Murphy, John Hare, and Kirk Sorensen</description>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/10/smog-solar-engine/comment-page-1/#comment-5977</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 08:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1213#comment-5977</guid>
		<description>When funds are available for such things, I want to buy the papers from the last beamed propulsion conference. The one before last had at least one presentation on Lunar laser heating LLOX for Lunar launch. I&#039;m sure that there are many other interesting applications there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When funds are available for such things, I want to buy the papers from the last beamed propulsion conference. The one before last had at least one presentation on Lunar laser heating LLOX for Lunar launch. I&#8217;m sure that there are many other interesting applications there.</p>
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		<title>By: A_M_Swallow</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/10/smog-solar-engine/comment-page-1/#comment-5971</link>
		<dc:creator>A_M_Swallow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 00:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1213#comment-5971</guid>
		<description>A space-port can have a power beaming device aimed at the launch pad.  A second power transmitter could be build to handle the launch vehicle when it goes over the horizon.  This could work on the Moon, and possibly be solar powered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A space-port can have a power beaming device aimed at the launch pad.  A second power transmitter could be build to handle the launch vehicle when it goes over the horizon.  This could work on the Moon, and possibly be solar powered.</p>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/10/smog-solar-engine/comment-page-1/#comment-5967</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1213#comment-5967</guid>
		<description>If you can use any of the controled beam methods, It should be superior in Isp performance to the mirrors idea. It will almost certainly cost more and have a lower T/W ratio. If you can beam from elsewhere though, performance could be incredible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you can use any of the controled beam methods, It should be superior in Isp performance to the mirrors idea. It will almost certainly cost more and have a lower T/W ratio. If you can beam from elsewhere though, performance could be incredible.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Collins</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/10/smog-solar-engine/comment-page-1/#comment-5963</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1213#comment-5963</guid>
		<description>It may be possible to achieve the desired effect using an ionized gas and beamed energy in the form of microwave radiation.  If you can send the beamed radiation at the cyclotron resonance frequency of the ions and/or the electrons, and then focus that energy on a small magnetic bottle/nozzle, you might just be able to get some of the advantages of VASIMR in a more efficient package.  The use of magnetically confined plasma will allow much higher temperatures - and therefore exhaust velocities - while the use of beamed power removes the mass penalty associated with the reactor and cooling systems.  Unfortunately, I&#039;m not familiar enough with the design requirements of microwave reflectors/waveguides to be able to say if they would be any more mass efficient than solar reflectors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It may be possible to achieve the desired effect using an ionized gas and beamed energy in the form of microwave radiation.  If you can send the beamed radiation at the cyclotron resonance frequency of the ions and/or the electrons, and then focus that energy on a small magnetic bottle/nozzle, you might just be able to get some of the advantages of VASIMR in a more efficient package.  The use of magnetically confined plasma will allow much higher temperatures &#8211; and therefore exhaust velocities &#8211; while the use of beamed power removes the mass penalty associated with the reactor and cooling systems.  Unfortunately, I&#8217;m not familiar enough with the design requirements of microwave reflectors/waveguides to be able to say if they would be any more mass efficient than solar reflectors.</p>
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		<title>By: Habitat Hermit</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/10/smog-solar-engine/comment-page-1/#comment-5914</link>
		<dc:creator>Habitat Hermit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1213#comment-5914</guid>
		<description>Hmm a &quot;thermospike&quot;/thermal sail? I think the first illustration is the best/simplest one, a fixed structure of reflective material behind the engine which should work just as well in any direction perpendicular/tangential to the Sun and with decreasing efficiency at angles away from the perpendicular. Making the reflective &quot;sail&quot; axially symmetric through 180 degrees only and possible to rotate in the plane perpendicular to the &quot;top to bottom&quot; axis  (i.e. around the nozzle) should allow for additional maneuverability.

As long as the resulting vector is in the wanted direction I don&#039;t think there&#039;s much point in mirroring the setup in any way for the purpose of achieving &quot;balance&quot; as any such should be able to be defined by the shape of the reflective surface and the fuel expansion properties (is this just counter-intuitive or am I wrong? Perhaps think of it as if it was an aerospike engine for use along a hypothetical sharp border between atmosphere and vacuum: there would only be a point in having a properly &quot;tuned&quot; custom &quot;half annular aerospike&quot; that dipped into the atmosphere just like a boat engine).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm a &#8220;thermospike&#8221;/thermal sail? I think the first illustration is the best/simplest one, a fixed structure of reflective material behind the engine which should work just as well in any direction perpendicular/tangential to the Sun and with decreasing efficiency at angles away from the perpendicular. Making the reflective &#8220;sail&#8221; axially symmetric through 180 degrees only and possible to rotate in the plane perpendicular to the &#8220;top to bottom&#8221; axis  (i.e. around the nozzle) should allow for additional maneuverability.</p>
<p>As long as the resulting vector is in the wanted direction I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s much point in mirroring the setup in any way for the purpose of achieving &#8220;balance&#8221; as any such should be able to be defined by the shape of the reflective surface and the fuel expansion properties (is this just counter-intuitive or am I wrong? Perhaps think of it as if it was an aerospike engine for use along a hypothetical sharp border between atmosphere and vacuum: there would only be a point in having a properly &#8220;tuned&#8221; custom &#8220;half annular aerospike&#8221; that dipped into the atmosphere just like a boat engine).</p>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/10/smog-solar-engine/comment-page-1/#comment-5911</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:23:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1213#comment-5911</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the information. The way I see it, if it goes complex, it goes away as there are plenty of other propulsion ways out there without adding more. Only if it can give serious advantages for the dollar do I see pushing on.

&quot;Ideas are cheap, implementation is hard.&quot; Henry Vanderbuilt</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the information. The way I see it, if it goes complex, it goes away as there are plenty of other propulsion ways out there without adding more. Only if it can give serious advantages for the dollar do I see pushing on.</p>
<p>&#8220;Ideas are cheap, implementation is hard.&#8221; Henry Vanderbuilt</p>
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		<title>By: Nels Anderson</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/10/smog-solar-engine/comment-page-1/#comment-5910</link>
		<dc:creator>Nels Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 05:25:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1213#comment-5910</guid>
		<description>Just a couple of comments about opacities.  Typical lunar dust particles are about 10 microns in diameter or larger.  At visible wavelengths ilicate grains this size present a few hundred square centimeters of absorption cross section per gram.  If you can pulverize the dust to get it down aboyt half a micron in size, you can get the opacity up to a few *thousand* cm2/g.

The opacity of hydrogen does increase quite a bit once the hydrogen is ionized, but 1) that means making it pretty damn hot, 2) the opacity is still small (less than 1 cm2 per gram of hydrogen), and 3) the opacity is principally *scattering* rather than the desired absorption.  For heating hydrogen directly, I imagine your better off with an RF beam, and you&#039;d probably want to introduce some some magnetic fields and start using plasma effects.  It rapidly distances itself from the simple concept you propose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a couple of comments about opacities.  Typical lunar dust particles are about 10 microns in diameter or larger.  At visible wavelengths ilicate grains this size present a few hundred square centimeters of absorption cross section per gram.  If you can pulverize the dust to get it down aboyt half a micron in size, you can get the opacity up to a few *thousand* cm2/g.</p>
<p>The opacity of hydrogen does increase quite a bit once the hydrogen is ionized, but 1) that means making it pretty damn hot, 2) the opacity is still small (less than 1 cm2 per gram of hydrogen), and 3) the opacity is principally *scattering* rather than the desired absorption.  For heating hydrogen directly, I imagine your better off with an RF beam, and you&#8217;d probably want to introduce some some magnetic fields and start using plasma effects.  It rapidly distances itself from the simple concept you propose.</p>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/10/smog-solar-engine/comment-page-1/#comment-5906</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 22:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1213#comment-5906</guid>
		<description>There are plenty of stupid questions, but this definately isn&#039;t one of them.

If it is possible to use this concept as intended, then it should be better than either. Please note that I said if. Higher Isp and T/W than nuclear, and much higher T/W than electric anything at probably 40% of that Isp. For acceleration and fast transit, a clear (note IF) winner on transit times. 

Nuclear thermal Isp is limited by the temperature limits of the heat exchanger. Since the hydrogen must be heated by a physical heat exchanger, there are serious limits to the temperatures attainable. If the hydrogen with a molecular mass of 2 could be heated to the same temperature as a stochiometric chemical H2/O2 engine exhaust product with a molecular mass of 18, then it could have an exhaust velocity 3 times as high.* That would be Isp=~1,350. Actually less because the chemical engines run rich which lowers the average molecular mass. 

Anything electric has powerplant mass issues that kill T/W to the point of uselessness for reasonable acceleration and fast trips. IMO of course.

The nuclear material temperature limits are what got me thinking about this afterheating trick. A laser from dead astern would be an ellegant solution, unless you have to carry it and all it&#039;s gear along.

*I&#039;m sure you are aware of the exhaust velocity being proportionate to the square root of temperature over molecular mass. Just letting you know that&#039;s where I got my numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are plenty of stupid questions, but this definately isn&#8217;t one of them.</p>
<p>If it is possible to use this concept as intended, then it should be better than either. Please note that I said if. Higher Isp and T/W than nuclear, and much higher T/W than electric anything at probably 40% of that Isp. For acceleration and fast transit, a clear (note IF) winner on transit times. </p>
<p>Nuclear thermal Isp is limited by the temperature limits of the heat exchanger. Since the hydrogen must be heated by a physical heat exchanger, there are serious limits to the temperatures attainable. If the hydrogen with a molecular mass of 2 could be heated to the same temperature as a stochiometric chemical H2/O2 engine exhaust product with a molecular mass of 18, then it could have an exhaust velocity 3 times as high.* That would be Isp=~1,350. Actually less because the chemical engines run rich which lowers the average molecular mass. </p>
<p>Anything electric has powerplant mass issues that kill T/W to the point of uselessness for reasonable acceleration and fast trips. IMO of course.</p>
<p>The nuclear material temperature limits are what got me thinking about this afterheating trick. A laser from dead astern would be an ellegant solution, unless you have to carry it and all it&#8217;s gear along.</p>
<p>*I&#8217;m sure you are aware of the exhaust velocity being proportionate to the square root of temperature over molecular mass. Just letting you know that&#8217;s where I got my numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: A_M_Swallow</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/10/smog-solar-engine/comment-page-1/#comment-5904</link>
		<dc:creator>A_M_Swallow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 19:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1213#comment-5904</guid>
		<description>@Roderick Reilly

How fast is an unanswerable question because the question is incomplete.  The simplified equations that apply are 
F = m a
v = u + a t

To get v we would need to know the mass m of the rocket, the force F (also called the thrust) and the burn time t.  The mass changing as fuel is burnt makes everything harder.  Given sufficient thrust and fuel we can make the rocket go as fast as we want (until relativity kicks in).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Roderick Reilly</p>
<p>How fast is an unanswerable question because the question is incomplete.  The simplified equations that apply are<br />
F = m a<br />
v = u + a t</p>
<p>To get v we would need to know the mass m of the rocket, the force F (also called the thrust) and the burn time t.  The mass changing as fuel is burnt makes everything harder.  Given sufficient thrust and fuel we can make the rocket go as fast as we want (until relativity kicks in).</p>
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		<title>By: Roderick Reilly</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/10/smog-solar-engine/comment-page-1/#comment-5901</link>
		<dc:creator>Roderick Reilly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1213#comment-5901</guid>
		<description>Stupid question:

How fast? Propusion concepts like nuclear thermal and VASIMR promise dramatically-reduced transit times to Mars and beyond. For manned missions that is a big plus.

Am I asking the wrong question in the wrong place, perhaps? The concept in this blog post of yours may work for slow transit times for unmanned payloads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stupid question:</p>
<p>How fast? Propusion concepts like nuclear thermal and VASIMR promise dramatically-reduced transit times to Mars and beyond. For manned missions that is a big plus.</p>
<p>Am I asking the wrong question in the wrong place, perhaps? The concept in this blog post of yours may work for slow transit times for unmanned payloads.</p>
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