<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Common Nozzle with Multiple Chambers</title>
	<atom:link href="http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/09/common-nozzle-with-multiple-chambers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/09/common-nozzle-with-multiple-chambers/</link>
	<description>Random Musings from the Warped Minds of Jonathan Goff, Ken Murphy, John Hare, and Kirk Sorensen</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:26:05 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/09/common-nozzle-with-multiple-chambers/comment-page-1/#comment-7172</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 10:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1171#comment-7172</guid>
		<description>A cooling loop for the rod I would think. It has been tested with solids under the name pintle throat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A cooling loop for the rod I would think. It has been tested with solids under the name pintle throat.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: PeterH</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/09/common-nozzle-with-multiple-chambers/comment-page-1/#comment-7169</link>
		<dc:creator>PeterH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 06:22:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1171#comment-7169</guid>
		<description>Fluid flow from the center chamber across the other chambers strikes me as problematic.

A configuration I&#039;ve considered for the same objective has a throat something like a needle valve.  For full throttle / sea level the throat is unobstructed.  As the rocket climbs and throttles down, a conical rod lowers into the throat reducing throat area and keeping chamber pressure up.  Biggest difficulty I see is cooling the conical rod.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fluid flow from the center chamber across the other chambers strikes me as problematic.</p>
<p>A configuration I&#8217;ve considered for the same objective has a throat something like a needle valve.  For full throttle / sea level the throat is unobstructed.  As the rocket climbs and throttles down, a conical rod lowers into the throat reducing throat area and keeping chamber pressure up.  Biggest difficulty I see is cooling the conical rod.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/09/common-nozzle-with-multiple-chambers/comment-page-1/#comment-5647</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 10:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1171#comment-5647</guid>
		<description>If you are going for single propellant tanks, dropping peroxide tanks sounds good. With mixture ratios of 7 or more, several of them would empty before one fuel tank. The simpler tanks would improve both mass ratio and cost. It might get a bit interesting figuring out how to drop the singleprop tanks in threes. 

With LO2/Kero with singleprop tanks, empty two LO2 and one Kero with just a little off center mass later in the flight. The center tank could still use your monoprop of choice.

I think the concept is flexible enough that dropping tanks or shutting down engines could be done in threes just as well as twos.

I have seen a description of the nested annuler chambers. I think it was in Hutzel and Huang, but can&#039;t remember the proper name offhand. I&#039;ve really got to get my references out of storage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are going for single propellant tanks, dropping peroxide tanks sounds good. With mixture ratios of 7 or more, several of them would empty before one fuel tank. The simpler tanks would improve both mass ratio and cost. It might get a bit interesting figuring out how to drop the singleprop tanks in threes. </p>
<p>With LO2/Kero with singleprop tanks, empty two LO2 and one Kero with just a little off center mass later in the flight. The center tank could still use your monoprop of choice.</p>
<p>I think the concept is flexible enough that dropping tanks or shutting down engines could be done in threes just as well as twos.</p>
<p>I have seen a description of the nested annuler chambers. I think it was in Hutzel and Huang, but can&#8217;t remember the proper name offhand. I&#8217;ve really got to get my references out of storage.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/09/common-nozzle-with-multiple-chambers/comment-page-1/#comment-5639</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1171#comment-5639</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been thinking that this might fit well with a dual mode propulsion rocket. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_mode_propulsion_rocket
You could use the centre tank solely for the monopropellant (I&#039;d say peroxide or Nitrous), and the drop tanks solely for the fuel. This would simplify plumbing somewhat, and eliminate bulkheads. For the sustainer engine you could use something similar to what you describe in &quot;Peroxide and Aerospike&quot; (except without the aerospike), since it looks like it would work well enough in monoprop mode.

Would it be possible to configure the tanks so you could drop them three at a time instead of two at a time? I&#039;m thinking this could possibly add some mission flexibility. Additionally shutting down the engines in threes leaves you with pitch/yaw control from the engine until you shut down to the sustainer, while shutting down in twos means that you lose one of these axes before the last shut down.

Looking at the &quot;Peroxide and Aerospike&quot; post made me wonder about using concentric annular combustion chambers instead of conventional ones, but that sounds exceedingly complicated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking that this might fit well with a dual mode propulsion rocket.<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_mode_propulsion_rocket" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_mode_propulsion_rocket</a><br />
You could use the centre tank solely for the monopropellant (I&#8217;d say peroxide or Nitrous), and the drop tanks solely for the fuel. This would simplify plumbing somewhat, and eliminate bulkheads. For the sustainer engine you could use something similar to what you describe in &#8220;Peroxide and Aerospike&#8221; (except without the aerospike), since it looks like it would work well enough in monoprop mode.</p>
<p>Would it be possible to configure the tanks so you could drop them three at a time instead of two at a time? I&#8217;m thinking this could possibly add some mission flexibility. Additionally shutting down the engines in threes leaves you with pitch/yaw control from the engine until you shut down to the sustainer, while shutting down in twos means that you lose one of these axes before the last shut down.</p>
<p>Looking at the &#8220;Peroxide and Aerospike&#8221; post made me wonder about using concentric annular combustion chambers instead of conventional ones, but that sounds exceedingly complicated.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/09/common-nozzle-with-multiple-chambers/comment-page-1/#comment-5634</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1171#comment-5634</guid>
		<description>I hadn&#039;t thought about the engine out with common nozzle  compared to multiple engines. Seems like control authority would be better this way. 

If crazy stuff embarassed me, I&#039;d be in serious trouble. :-) As I&#039;ve said before thoigh, I consider this to be serious fun. Just for fun unless we get something worthwhile, then it&#039;s business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hadn&#8217;t thought about the engine out with common nozzle  compared to multiple engines. Seems like control authority would be better this way. </p>
<p>If crazy stuff embarassed me, I&#8217;d be in serious trouble. <img src='http://selenianboondocks.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  As I&#8217;ve said before thoigh, I consider this to be serious fun. Just for fun unless we get something worthwhile, then it&#8217;s business.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Habitat Hermit</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/09/common-nozzle-with-multiple-chambers/comment-page-1/#comment-5632</link>
		<dc:creator>Habitat Hermit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1171#comment-5632</guid>
		<description>Wanted to reply to this earlier as I&#039;ve been fooling around with/thinking about this myself both for use with liquids and solids. A benefit nobody has mentioned yet (perhaps it&#039;s too obvious) is that one gets the same kind of engine-out capability with X chambers 1 nozzle as with X chambers X nozzles.

For certain strange and unorthodox solid rocket configurations (I&#039;ll save myself the embarrassment, it&#039;s crazy stuff ^_^) a possible benefit could/should be that one can launch and circularize with the same engine/nozzle with a minimal amount of additional equipment and perhaps also achieve smoother flow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wanted to reply to this earlier as I&#8217;ve been fooling around with/thinking about this myself both for use with liquids and solids. A benefit nobody has mentioned yet (perhaps it&#8217;s too obvious) is that one gets the same kind of engine-out capability with X chambers 1 nozzle as with X chambers X nozzles.</p>
<p>For certain strange and unorthodox solid rocket configurations (I&#8217;ll save myself the embarrassment, it&#8217;s crazy stuff ^_^) a possible benefit could/should be that one can launch and circularize with the same engine/nozzle with a minimal amount of additional equipment and perhaps also achieve smoother flow.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/09/common-nozzle-with-multiple-chambers/comment-page-1/#comment-5594</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1171#comment-5594</guid>
		<description>The V2/A4 burner cups is a good visualization if as many as 19 chambers are used. The difference being that the V2/A4 burner cups were injector elements to the chamber, while these would be full chambers to the expansion nozzle. 

Or if you mean that the 19 V2/A4 burner cups were lifted straight off the 1 cup A3, then exactly. Clustering something that you know works is frequently a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The V2/A4 burner cups is a good visualization if as many as 19 chambers are used. The difference being that the V2/A4 burner cups were injector elements to the chamber, while these would be full chambers to the expansion nozzle. </p>
<p>Or if you mean that the 19 V2/A4 burner cups were lifted straight off the 1 cup A3, then exactly. Clustering something that you know works is frequently a good thing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/09/common-nozzle-with-multiple-chambers/comment-page-1/#comment-5593</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 21:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1171#comment-5593</guid>
		<description>The pistonless pumps would be a trade off between performance and cost. It does seem logical that the Flometrics units would improve the breed.

If you put all the chambers in a single plane it would make development and testing much simpler also. A company could mount several low ratio nozzle engines on a flat plate with large expansion nozzle attached. A few charictoristics burns would answer a whole lot of questions without the complex nozzle construction I was thinking of. 

As an added bonus, the number of thrust chambers becomes arbitrary. Two or nineteen could work if the flat plate works. That would simplify building larger total thrust vehicles with common sizes of well known thrust chambers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The pistonless pumps would be a trade off between performance and cost. It does seem logical that the Flometrics units would improve the breed.</p>
<p>If you put all the chambers in a single plane it would make development and testing much simpler also. A company could mount several low ratio nozzle engines on a flat plate with large expansion nozzle attached. A few charictoristics burns would answer a whole lot of questions without the complex nozzle construction I was thinking of. </p>
<p>As an added bonus, the number of thrust chambers becomes arbitrary. Two or nineteen could work if the flat plate works. That would simplify building larger total thrust vehicles with common sizes of well known thrust chambers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/09/common-nozzle-with-multiple-chambers/comment-page-1/#comment-5592</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1171#comment-5592</guid>
		<description>Seems to include some V2 ancestry?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems to include some V2 ancestry?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: jsuros</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/09/common-nozzle-with-multiple-chambers/comment-page-1/#comment-5589</link>
		<dc:creator>jsuros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 16:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1171#comment-5589</guid>
		<description>If each of the drop tanks had a pistonless pump integrated in its volume, then you could arrange to drop increments of tankage and pumping capacity as needed. That has to be simpler that a pump with such a large throttle range.

In your diagram, you place multiple combustion chambers in a heavy/complicated looking staggered cone. Could you put all chambers in a single plane for design and cost simplicity and get the same result?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If each of the drop tanks had a pistonless pump integrated in its volume, then you could arrange to drop increments of tankage and pumping capacity as needed. That has to be simpler that a pump with such a large throttle range.</p>
<p>In your diagram, you place multiple combustion chambers in a heavy/complicated looking staggered cone. Could you put all chambers in a single plane for design and cost simplicity and get the same result?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

