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	<title>Comments on: Alternate History Thought</title>
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	<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/06/alternate-history-thought/</link>
	<description>Random Musings from the Warped Minds of Jonathan Goff, Ken Murphy, John Hare, and Kirk Sorensen</description>
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		<title>By: Roderick Reilly</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/06/alternate-history-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-4857</link>
		<dc:creator>Roderick Reilly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:32:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1029#comment-4857</guid>
		<description>I know this thing is all in good fun, so I won&#039;t pick at nits (much). The prize idea is great, but your scenario is too complex, in my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know this thing is all in good fun, so I won&#8217;t pick at nits (much). The prize idea is great, but your scenario is too complex, in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Habitat Hermit</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/06/alternate-history-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-4856</link>
		<dc:creator>Habitat Hermit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1029#comment-4856</guid>
		<description>Brilliant idea John Hare. Best way to spend eight billion I&#039;ve ever heard of (tack on a handful of guaranteed purchases for every competitor that reaches stable orbit and you&#039;ll easily spend 8 billion, or one could continue the approach all the way to the moon). Safety wouldn&#039;t be much different than the requirements for the Ansari X-Prize contestants and other existing rules (FAA etc.).

Market vs. availability, chicken vs. egg, either way can be a solution, I think this would work (and I also think you would relatively quickly have more than 10 different contestants involved).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brilliant idea John Hare. Best way to spend eight billion I&#8217;ve ever heard of (tack on a handful of guaranteed purchases for every competitor that reaches stable orbit and you&#8217;ll easily spend 8 billion, or one could continue the approach all the way to the moon). Safety wouldn&#8217;t be much different than the requirements for the Ansari X-Prize contestants and other existing rules (FAA etc.).</p>
<p>Market vs. availability, chicken vs. egg, either way can be a solution, I think this would work (and I also think you would relatively quickly have more than 10 different contestants involved).</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/06/alternate-history-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-4855</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1029#comment-4855</guid>
		<description>John,
Spending more money does not necessarily lead to lower cost launch services - launch vehicles will grow to the limits of available funding. Throwing more money at the problem also has a tendency to lead to an exclusive prize focus. I kind of like the idea of having to depend on some market revenue for the economic case to close. A help up not a hand out... 

If there is more money to spend, spend it on creating a market - prizes for propellant depots, etc. Then let the market create the RLV, not some artificial prize.

It is also nice if one can pay for the ultimate result only, this greatly reduces gaming and generally has better accountability. But this does delay revenue - hopefully market revenue can help here, get competitors market and investor focused from the initial design stage. The prizes could then be a bonus for actually creating a good business, instead of just tech candy.

Pete.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,<br />
Spending more money does not necessarily lead to lower cost launch services &#8211; launch vehicles will grow to the limits of available funding. Throwing more money at the problem also has a tendency to lead to an exclusive prize focus. I kind of like the idea of having to depend on some market revenue for the economic case to close. A help up not a hand out&#8230; </p>
<p>If there is more money to spend, spend it on creating a market &#8211; prizes for propellant depots, etc. Then let the market create the RLV, not some artificial prize.</p>
<p>It is also nice if one can pay for the ultimate result only, this greatly reduces gaming and generally has better accountability. But this does delay revenue &#8211; hopefully market revenue can help here, get competitors market and investor focused from the initial design stage. The prizes could then be a bonus for actually creating a good business, instead of just tech candy.</p>
<p>Pete.</p>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/06/alternate-history-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-4853</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:32:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1029#comment-4853</guid>
		<description>Eric,

Safety would be a major concern that I skipped. I&#039;m not sure what the proper response is to that.

Winning prize money is not a sustainable strategy past the time the prize money stops. NASCAR is a group that has a very long history of operation with prize money being the visible goal. Sponsorship is the real goal there, and participants should be motivated to collect any cash lying around in this as well.

The idea was to outgame the gamers. Set it up so that the inevitable gaming of the rules creates the result you had in mind at the start. It is hard to believe that some rediculous idea like this could deliver even less useful results than der Griffenshaft.

IMO, at 5 years there would be several orbital vehicles with rapid turnaround that could be easily converted to useful capability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric,</p>
<p>Safety would be a major concern that I skipped. I&#8217;m not sure what the proper response is to that.</p>
<p>Winning prize money is not a sustainable strategy past the time the prize money stops. NASCAR is a group that has a very long history of operation with prize money being the visible goal. Sponsorship is the real goal there, and participants should be motivated to collect any cash lying around in this as well.</p>
<p>The idea was to outgame the gamers. Set it up so that the inevitable gaming of the rules creates the result you had in mind at the start. It is hard to believe that some rediculous idea like this could deliver even less useful results than der Griffenshaft.</p>
<p>IMO, at 5 years there would be several orbital vehicles with rapid turnaround that could be easily converted to useful capability.</p>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/06/alternate-history-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-4852</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1029#comment-4852</guid>
		<description>Pete,
Part of the requirements are to burn through the same several Billion dollars that der Griffenshaft has. From that perspective, your prizes are too small and too late. Another part of it is to get the revenue stream going early for results attainable by Scaled, Armadillo, and company. Requiring large numbers of orbital flights first doesn&#039;t prime the pump for these relatively low dollar competators. They would need to know that losing this month only means waiting another month to go for it again. If anybody could accumulate the number of flights you suggest, they wouldn&#039;t need some contest to pay them a fraction of the normal rates later.

When Armadillo had problems with the early LLC flights, they could have fixed and flown a month later and repeated until getting a prize. Then go for it again next month. That level of funding stream for delivered results could have considerably ramped up their efforts.

It seems likely that Scaled would not have built a vehicle that would be retired as soon as the minimum requirements were met. They would have been leaving scads of green on the table.

Many of the other teams and interested parties would have been able to secure funding if there was another oportunity each month with second through tenth prizes still being substantial assistance to the financier. While many of the teams were fantasy based, the solid ones could have made a business case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete,<br />
Part of the requirements are to burn through the same several Billion dollars that der Griffenshaft has. From that perspective, your prizes are too small and too late. Another part of it is to get the revenue stream going early for results attainable by Scaled, Armadillo, and company. Requiring large numbers of orbital flights first doesn&#8217;t prime the pump for these relatively low dollar competators. They would need to know that losing this month only means waiting another month to go for it again. If anybody could accumulate the number of flights you suggest, they wouldn&#8217;t need some contest to pay them a fraction of the normal rates later.</p>
<p>When Armadillo had problems with the early LLC flights, they could have fixed and flown a month later and repeated until getting a prize. Then go for it again next month. That level of funding stream for delivered results could have considerably ramped up their efforts.</p>
<p>It seems likely that Scaled would not have built a vehicle that would be retired as soon as the minimum requirements were met. They would have been leaving scads of green on the table.</p>
<p>Many of the other teams and interested parties would have been able to secure funding if there was another oportunity each month with second through tenth prizes still being substantial assistance to the financier. While many of the teams were fantasy based, the solid ones could have made a business case.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Collins</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/06/alternate-history-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-4851</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1029#comment-4851</guid>
		<description>I worry that safety would be an issue in such a prize program.  With such a large sum of money available so often, there is a strong chance that somebody will eventually push too far with insufficient safety margins.  Such reckless risk taking will not serve the industry or the goal of cheap, safe, and reliable space access.

There is also the issue that winning prize money does not really seem like a sound business strategy.  The revenue stream is not reliable (sometimes you&#039;ll win, sometimes you won&#039;t), and it does not explicitly encourage the development of sustainable markets.  You could also get teams optimizing their vehicle to game the rules of the competition rather than to satisfy the requirements for accomplishing more practical mission objectives.

Granted these are worst case scenarios, but these issues or similar problems could potentially crop up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I worry that safety would be an issue in such a prize program.  With such a large sum of money available so often, there is a strong chance that somebody will eventually push too far with insufficient safety margins.  Such reckless risk taking will not serve the industry or the goal of cheap, safe, and reliable space access.</p>
<p>There is also the issue that winning prize money does not really seem like a sound business strategy.  The revenue stream is not reliable (sometimes you&#8217;ll win, sometimes you won&#8217;t), and it does not explicitly encourage the development of sustainable markets.  You could also get teams optimizing their vehicle to game the rules of the competition rather than to satisfy the requirements for accomplishing more practical mission objectives.</p>
<p>Granted these are worst case scenarios, but these issues or similar problems could potentially crop up.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/06/alternate-history-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-4850</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:27:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1029#comment-4850</guid>
		<description>I agree but I worry that you are over complicating this - prizes should ideally pick a good metric and target it specifically. If it requires more than a few sentences to describe and requires active management, then maybe it is too complicated and not well targeted.

For example, $150M, $100M and $50M respectively to the first three groups to do a hundred orbital flights at least 10% of which must be manned.

Here the primary metric being targeted is flight number, with biases towards multiple winners (building industry), manned operation (safety), RLVs (high flight number), low cost operation (low prize value), incremental development (long term, high flight number), no stunts endurance race (long term, high flight number), building supplementary market (low prize value, long term, high flight number), etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree but I worry that you are over complicating this &#8211; prizes should ideally pick a good metric and target it specifically. If it requires more than a few sentences to describe and requires active management, then maybe it is too complicated and not well targeted.</p>
<p>For example, $150M, $100M and $50M respectively to the first three groups to do a hundred orbital flights at least 10% of which must be manned.</p>
<p>Here the primary metric being targeted is flight number, with biases towards multiple winners (building industry), manned operation (safety), RLVs (high flight number), low cost operation (low prize value), incremental development (long term, high flight number), no stunts endurance race (long term, high flight number), building supplementary market (low prize value, long term, high flight number), etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Steinke</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/06/alternate-history-thought/comment-page-1/#comment-4847</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Steinke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=1029#comment-4847</guid>
		<description>This should have been done in 2003 instead of shuttle return to flight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This should have been done in 2003 instead of shuttle return to flight.</p>
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