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	<title>Comments on: RLV Markets Part II: The Black Aluminum Analogy</title>
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	<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/04/rlv-markets-part-ii-the-black-aluminum-analogy/</link>
	<description>Random Musings from the Warped Minds of Jonathan Goff, Ken Murphy, John Hare, and Kirk Sorensen</description>
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		<title>By: Pete Lynn</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/04/rlv-markets-part-ii-the-black-aluminum-analogy/comment-page-1/#comment-4648</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete Lynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:32:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=638#comment-4648</guid>
		<description>Speaking of Merlin engines - why do they have such low ISP? I had thought due to the low expansion ratio, but then I note that the sea level ISP is not that great either. I further note that they have a high expansion Merlin for the Falcon IX second stage - wonder what performance it gets.

Pete.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of Merlin engines &#8211; why do they have such low ISP? I had thought due to the low expansion ratio, but then I note that the sea level ISP is not that great either. I further note that they have a high expansion Merlin for the Falcon IX second stage &#8211; wonder what performance it gets.</p>
<p>Pete.</p>
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		<title>By: Roderick Reilly</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/04/rlv-markets-part-ii-the-black-aluminum-analogy/comment-page-1/#comment-4628</link>
		<dc:creator>Roderick Reilly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:40:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=638#comment-4628</guid>
		<description>&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;You could possibly build a “mixed mode” VTOL using Merlins plus RL-10s. Just guessing, I’d figure such a vehicle would have a GLOW in the 400K lb. range to match the derated thrust of 6 Merlins, with perhaps 3 RL-10s for the “second stage”.&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;

Sounds like a job for Aerojet&#039;s TAN (Thrust Augmented Nozzle). See the Selenian post at http://selenianboondocks.com/2007/11/random-thought-thrust-augmented-aj26-60/

and also:

http://selenianboondocks.com/2007/11/thrust-augmented-nozzles/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8221;"&#8221;"&#8221;You could possibly build a “mixed mode” VTOL using Merlins plus RL-10s. Just guessing, I’d figure such a vehicle would have a GLOW in the 400K lb. range to match the derated thrust of 6 Merlins, with perhaps 3 RL-10s for the “second stage”.&#8221;"&#8221;"&#8221;"</p>
<p>Sounds like a job for Aerojet&#8217;s TAN (Thrust Augmented Nozzle). See the Selenian post at <a href="http://selenianboondocks.com/2007/11/random-thought-thrust-augmented-aj26-60/" rel="nofollow">http://selenianboondocks.com/2007/11/random-thought-thrust-augmented-aj26-60/</a></p>
<p>and also:</p>
<p><a href="http://selenianboondocks.com/2007/11/thrust-augmented-nozzles/" rel="nofollow">http://selenianboondocks.com/2007/11/thrust-augmented-nozzles/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Roderick Reilly</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/04/rlv-markets-part-ii-the-black-aluminum-analogy/comment-page-1/#comment-4627</link>
		<dc:creator>Roderick Reilly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:34:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=638#comment-4627</guid>
		<description>I alos don&#039;t see how a Falcon 9 first stage could become a viable SSTO RLV. The post above that first mentions this does say that it wasn&#039;t SpaceX proposing, but an independent poster imagining that possibility.

One option to make either the Merlin or NK-33 more efficent for possible SSTO use would be carbon-carbon nozzle inserts inside upper-stage configured nozzles for the engines. These inserts would configure the nozzles for boost-phase effciency, then be ejected so the nozzles would be reconfigured for the rest of the flight. Still a long shot though. Until carbon nanotube derived materials are available for major fuselage cmponents, I don&#039;t see how conventional engines could power an SSTO RLV, even with using a drop-tank to lose structural weight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I alos don&#8217;t see how a Falcon 9 first stage could become a viable SSTO RLV. The post above that first mentions this does say that it wasn&#8217;t SpaceX proposing, but an independent poster imagining that possibility.</p>
<p>One option to make either the Merlin or NK-33 more efficent for possible SSTO use would be carbon-carbon nozzle inserts inside upper-stage configured nozzles for the engines. These inserts would configure the nozzles for boost-phase effciency, then be ejected so the nozzles would be reconfigured for the rest of the flight. Still a long shot though. Until carbon nanotube derived materials are available for major fuselage cmponents, I don&#8217;t see how conventional engines could power an SSTO RLV, even with using a drop-tank to lose structural weight.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary C Hudson</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/04/rlv-markets-part-ii-the-black-aluminum-analogy/comment-page-1/#comment-4618</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary C Hudson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=638#comment-4618</guid>
		<description>30 Anon, I don&#039;t think the Merlin alone can do the job.  I know one could build something like you ask for using the NK-33; we looked at just that for the Roton as a backup, but unfortunately the engine size was mismatched to the vehicle GLOW.  (You want a smaller engine and more of them for a VTOL due to ascent abort considerations, or you end up with a very large vehicle.)  

You could possibly build a &quot;mixed mode&quot; VTOL using Merlins plus RL-10s.  Just guessing, I&#039;d figure such a vehicle would have a GLOW in the 400K lb. range to match the derated thrust of 6 Merlins, with perhaps 3 RL-10s for the &quot;second stage&quot;.  The cost of the RL-10s would kill the project, however, since they are in the double-digit million range, now.  The project would end up at a few hundred millions to be a useful demonstrator.

FYI, Gwynne told me a few years ago that the &quot;sale&quot; price (if they were ever to sell, which is questionable to me) would be $5M per Merlin.  So right there, the engines would cost you about $50-60M for one shipset.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>30 Anon, I don&#8217;t think the Merlin alone can do the job.  I know one could build something like you ask for using the NK-33; we looked at just that for the Roton as a backup, but unfortunately the engine size was mismatched to the vehicle GLOW.  (You want a smaller engine and more of them for a VTOL due to ascent abort considerations, or you end up with a very large vehicle.)  </p>
<p>You could possibly build a &#8220;mixed mode&#8221; VTOL using Merlins plus RL-10s.  Just guessing, I&#8217;d figure such a vehicle would have a GLOW in the 400K lb. range to match the derated thrust of 6 Merlins, with perhaps 3 RL-10s for the &#8220;second stage&#8221;.  The cost of the RL-10s would kill the project, however, since they are in the double-digit million range, now.  The project would end up at a few hundred millions to be a useful demonstrator.</p>
<p>FYI, Gwynne told me a few years ago that the &#8220;sale&#8221; price (if they were ever to sell, which is questionable to me) would be $5M per Merlin.  So right there, the engines would cost you about $50-60M for one shipset.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/04/rlv-markets-part-ii-the-black-aluminum-analogy/comment-page-1/#comment-4616</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 06:25:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=638#comment-4616</guid>
		<description>Merlins have really craptacular isp.  You could probably build a non-reusable SSTO with one, at great expense, but the question really is why.  Noone other than the education market (cubesats) wants a rocket that can only take a tiny payload to a VERY low LEO.

You&#039;re better off spending a little more on NK-33&#039;s or even taking a one year development detour, calling the flometrics guys, and atleast seeing if you can make their system work. I think their system is going to be heavier than they say it will, but you can&#039;t argue with their price.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Merlins have really craptacular isp.  You could probably build a non-reusable SSTO with one, at great expense, but the question really is why.  Noone other than the education market (cubesats) wants a rocket that can only take a tiny payload to a VERY low LEO.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re better off spending a little more on NK-33&#8217;s or even taking a one year development detour, calling the flometrics guys, and atleast seeing if you can make their system work. I think their system is going to be heavier than they say it will, but you can&#8217;t argue with their price.</p>
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		<title>By: Selenian Boondocks &#187; Blog Archive &#187; RLV Markets III: Counter-Intuitive Ramifications of RLV Passenger Transportation</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/04/rlv-markets-part-ii-the-black-aluminum-analogy/comment-page-1/#comment-4607</link>
		<dc:creator>Selenian Boondocks &#187; Blog Archive &#187; RLV Markets III: Counter-Intuitive Ramifications of RLV Passenger Transportation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=638#comment-4607</guid>
		<description>[...] Comments       &#171; RLV Markets Part II: The Black Aluminum Analogy [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Comments       &laquo; RLV Markets Part II: The Black Aluminum Analogy [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/04/rlv-markets-part-ii-the-black-aluminum-analogy/comment-page-1/#comment-4604</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 22:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=638#comment-4604</guid>
		<description>A quick follow-up to the Gary 27 post.

If one could buy SpaceX Merlin engines for $1 Million each, how much would it cost to build an SSTO out of composites, and how long would it take, if re-usability was not a goal? Would this SSTO look something like the Roton ATV, and would you have Scaled Composites build your shell? The payload requirement would be 1,000 lbs to a 200 km reference orbit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A quick follow-up to the Gary 27 post.</p>
<p>If one could buy SpaceX Merlin engines for $1 Million each, how much would it cost to build an SSTO out of composites, and how long would it take, if re-usability was not a goal? Would this SSTO look something like the Roton ATV, and would you have Scaled Composites build your shell? The payload requirement would be 1,000 lbs to a 200 km reference orbit.</p>
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		<title>By: MG</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/04/rlv-markets-part-ii-the-black-aluminum-analogy/comment-page-1/#comment-4603</link>
		<dc:creator>MG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:47:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=638#comment-4603</guid>
		<description>Re:  people, propellant, and provisions.

The big difference is that the first of those three has the least tolerance of failure, and the least payload density.

Perhaps a workable development program (to the extent it exists) would be to build and test the bejesus out of a propellant  delivery vehicle that has the same geometry and payload capacity as a people mover.  It would be suboptimal as a propellant-only carrier, but would wring out a lot of risk.  

Assuming more than one stage (and referring to Jon&#039;s earlier post on stage recovery), the first stage could be suboptimal for the orbital mission mass, but be better tailored to the recover / relaunch role.  

One of the things that attract me to suborbital field is that a lot of the constraints that have driven launcher design (e.g. maximize mass ratios) are relaxed... and sometimes considerably.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re:  people, propellant, and provisions.</p>
<p>The big difference is that the first of those three has the least tolerance of failure, and the least payload density.</p>
<p>Perhaps a workable development program (to the extent it exists) would be to build and test the bejesus out of a propellant  delivery vehicle that has the same geometry and payload capacity as a people mover.  It would be suboptimal as a propellant-only carrier, but would wring out a lot of risk.  </p>
<p>Assuming more than one stage (and referring to Jon&#8217;s earlier post on stage recovery), the first stage could be suboptimal for the orbital mission mass, but be better tailored to the recover / relaunch role.  </p>
<p>One of the things that attract me to suborbital field is that a lot of the constraints that have driven launcher design (e.g. maximize mass ratios) are relaxed&#8230; and sometimes considerably.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary C Hudson</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/04/rlv-markets-part-ii-the-black-aluminum-analogy/comment-page-1/#comment-4602</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary C Hudson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=638#comment-4602</guid>
		<description>Just a quick follow up to anonymous 17.  The Roton ATV did have a flight weight and worthy structure including the fuel tanks. (We built the kerosene tank gores but didn&#039;t assemble or install them since that volume was occupied by the peroxide propellant for the ATV test phase.)

And to echo other comments: excellent post, Jon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a quick follow up to anonymous 17.  The Roton ATV did have a flight weight and worthy structure including the fuel tanks. (We built the kerosene tank gores but didn&#8217;t assemble or install them since that volume was occupied by the peroxide propellant for the ATV test phase.)</p>
<p>And to echo other comments: excellent post, Jon.</p>
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		<title>By: Roderick Reilly</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/04/rlv-markets-part-ii-the-black-aluminum-analogy/comment-page-1/#comment-4601</link>
		<dc:creator>Roderick Reilly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=638#comment-4601</guid>
		<description>Two other thoughts: &quot;JATO&quot;-style boosters, and game-changing technologies.

If you have short-duration boosters to help get the vehicle off the pad in what is otherwise a viable near-SSTO RLV, that is another option. I&#039;m talking about using small strap-on boosters as a &quot;virtual catapult.&quot;

We&#039;ve all heard of, and even discussed, things like rocket sled or carrier-type catapult launch systems to start a launch sequence. The thing about such systems is they limit launches to wherever such a system has been built. Using short-duration, high-acceleration boosters would mean 1) the &quot;catapult effect&quot; becomes portable, and 2) that the boosters would travel a relatively short distance before separation, thus facilitating recovery and simplifying operational issues. For instance, a 20-second burn at 4 Gs might mean staging at about 5 miles and at about Mach 2. Very rough guess (perhaps optimistic on the Mach numbers, but, you get the concept), but recovering from 5 miles up, and perhaps 10-15 miles downrange is less complicated than a large, fly-back booster. One of you folks did an entry on a runway rocket sled that is another option. With land-based speed records now exceeding Mach 1, that may have merit. The &quot;booster&quot; never leaver the ground, but doesn&#039;t need rails, just a runway. HOTOL flirted with that idea years ago.

Technologicasl game-changers: I imagine that we&#039;ll see the first aircraft fuselages built primarily with carbon nanotube meterials within a decade. This could make a dramatic diffrence in RLV design, and possibly allow for SSTOs with conventional propulsion.

More potent, denser hydrocarbon propellants, like a mixture of Quadricyclane and JP-10, instead of RP-1. Combined with advanced composite vehicle bodies, it could alter the equation for RLVs dramatically.

I haven&#039;t said anything about air-launch, as that is indeed a whole &#039;nother discussion handled at length on your blog in the past.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two other thoughts: &#8220;JATO&#8221;-style boosters, and game-changing technologies.</p>
<p>If you have short-duration boosters to help get the vehicle off the pad in what is otherwise a viable near-SSTO RLV, that is another option. I&#8217;m talking about using small strap-on boosters as a &#8220;virtual catapult.&#8221;</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve all heard of, and even discussed, things like rocket sled or carrier-type catapult launch systems to start a launch sequence. The thing about such systems is they limit launches to wherever such a system has been built. Using short-duration, high-acceleration boosters would mean 1) the &#8220;catapult effect&#8221; becomes portable, and 2) that the boosters would travel a relatively short distance before separation, thus facilitating recovery and simplifying operational issues. For instance, a 20-second burn at 4 Gs might mean staging at about 5 miles and at about Mach 2. Very rough guess (perhaps optimistic on the Mach numbers, but, you get the concept), but recovering from 5 miles up, and perhaps 10-15 miles downrange is less complicated than a large, fly-back booster. One of you folks did an entry on a runway rocket sled that is another option. With land-based speed records now exceeding Mach 1, that may have merit. The &#8220;booster&#8221; never leaver the ground, but doesn&#8217;t need rails, just a runway. HOTOL flirted with that idea years ago.</p>
<p>Technologicasl game-changers: I imagine that we&#8217;ll see the first aircraft fuselages built primarily with carbon nanotube meterials within a decade. This could make a dramatic diffrence in RLV design, and possibly allow for SSTOs with conventional propulsion.</p>
<p>More potent, denser hydrocarbon propellants, like a mixture of Quadricyclane and JP-10, instead of RP-1. Combined with advanced composite vehicle bodies, it could alter the equation for RLVs dramatically.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t said anything about air-launch, as that is indeed a whole &#8216;nother discussion handled at length on your blog in the past.</p>
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