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	<title>Comments on: Orbital Mechanics Tricksiness to Increase the Frequency of TLI Opportunities for LEO Depots</title>
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	<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/02/orbital-mechanics-tricksiness-to-increase-the-frequency-of-tli-opportunities-for-leo-depots/</link>
	<description>Random Musings from the Warped Minds of Jonathan Goff, Ken Murphy, John Hare, and Kirk Sorensen</description>
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		<title>By: Martijn Meijering</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/02/orbital-mechanics-tricksiness-to-increase-the-frequency-of-tli-opportunities-for-leo-depots/comment-page-1/#comment-5948</link>
		<dc:creator>Martijn Meijering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=902#comment-5948</guid>
		<description>Some more thoughts. The above essentially says that issues with nodal regression aren&#039;t unique to depot architectures, but have to do with LEO rendez-vous which the competition has to do anyway. It can be eliminated as an argument against depots.

Another consideration is that using the ISS as a gateway station, as it was originally intended, actually helps with these issues. If you launch your crew first and your EDS second, you mitigate boil-off issues (pre-depot) and launch window issues (depot). The crew can stay safely inside the ISS while it awaits the EDS and its launch window.

ISS also helps commercial space by providing an anchor customer for manned flights and perhaps by sharing costs if tourists are allowed on the ISS, say in an attached Bigelow module.

Thirdly, having the ISS around hurts SDLV because it eats up money. This cuts both ways of course. We will probably lose the battle to kill SDLV now, but that doesn&#039;t mean we can&#039;t stop it from ever entering service. It also means that even though ISS may be safe for now, it isn&#039;t safe beyond 2020 and it may require action soon if we want to do something about that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some more thoughts. The above essentially says that issues with nodal regression aren&#8217;t unique to depot architectures, but have to do with LEO rendez-vous which the competition has to do anyway. It can be eliminated as an argument against depots.</p>
<p>Another consideration is that using the ISS as a gateway station, as it was originally intended, actually helps with these issues. If you launch your crew first and your EDS second, you mitigate boil-off issues (pre-depot) and launch window issues (depot). The crew can stay safely inside the ISS while it awaits the EDS and its launch window.</p>
<p>ISS also helps commercial space by providing an anchor customer for manned flights and perhaps by sharing costs if tourists are allowed on the ISS, say in an attached Bigelow module.</p>
<p>Thirdly, having the ISS around hurts SDLV because it eats up money. This cuts both ways of course. We will probably lose the battle to kill SDLV now, but that doesn&#8217;t mean we can&#8217;t stop it from ever entering service. It also means that even though ISS may be safe for now, it isn&#8217;t safe beyond 2020 and it may require action soon if we want to do something about that.</p>
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		<title>By: Martijn Meijering</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/02/orbital-mechanics-tricksiness-to-increase-the-frequency-of-tli-opportunities-for-leo-depots/comment-page-1/#comment-5945</link>
		<dc:creator>Martijn Meijering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=902#comment-5945</guid>
		<description>Some additional thoughts now that I&#039;ve learned a bit more about orbital mechanics.

Most of the time you cannot launch straight into the moon&#039;s orbital plane from KSC anyway. There&#039;s something called the Saros cycle which causes the inclination of the moon&#039;s orbit to vary with a ~18 year period. For a lot of that time the inclination is below 28deg.

The competitors to depot centric architectures (aka SDLV architectures) suffer from the same problem because they have to do rendez-vous with an EDS that is launched first and whose orbit precesses too. Launching straight to L1/L2 would obviate that problem, but our SDLV loving friends won&#039;t go there. I think it is for two reasons: 1) L1/L2 are too easy to reach for competitors and 2) AVUS/JUS are so damned heavy that you&#039;d be hauling a bunch of useless metal to L1/L2, which hurts performance a lot. You could avoid this by using a Delta upper stage, but they won&#039;t do this because this invites EELV Phase 1 which will prove their launcher superfluous. Not that they will ever admit any of this of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some additional thoughts now that I&#8217;ve learned a bit more about orbital mechanics.</p>
<p>Most of the time you cannot launch straight into the moon&#8217;s orbital plane from KSC anyway. There&#8217;s something called the Saros cycle which causes the inclination of the moon&#8217;s orbit to vary with a ~18 year period. For a lot of that time the inclination is below 28deg.</p>
<p>The competitors to depot centric architectures (aka SDLV architectures) suffer from the same problem because they have to do rendez-vous with an EDS that is launched first and whose orbit precesses too. Launching straight to L1/L2 would obviate that problem, but our SDLV loving friends won&#8217;t go there. I think it is for two reasons: 1) L1/L2 are too easy to reach for competitors and 2) AVUS/JUS are so damned heavy that you&#8217;d be hauling a bunch of useless metal to L1/L2, which hurts performance a lot. You could avoid this by using a Delta upper stage, but they won&#8217;t do this because this invites EELV Phase 1 which will prove their launcher superfluous. Not that they will ever admit any of this of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Joey :-(</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/02/orbital-mechanics-tricksiness-to-increase-the-frequency-of-tli-opportunities-for-leo-depots/comment-page-1/#comment-4548</link>
		<dc:creator>Joey :-(</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 23:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=902#comment-4548</guid>
		<description>Looking up more info about orbital dynamics and its pretty apparent what I first thought doesn&#039;t work.  Two words: nodal precession.  Launching into the ecliptic at 23.5° and everyday your whole orbital plane spins around the equator 0-9° (depending on altitude and inclination, 100nmi at 0° inclination is 9°/day).  So, it wouldn&#039;t take long for nothing to line up.  Honestly it makes me mad, too much stuff rotating/orbiting/regressing/ascending/precessing that there&#039;s little you can do to sync it all. :-(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking up more info about orbital dynamics and its pretty apparent what I first thought doesn&#8217;t work.  Two words: nodal precession.  Launching into the ecliptic at 23.5° and everyday your whole orbital plane spins around the equator 0-9° (depending on altitude and inclination, 100nmi at 0° inclination is 9°/day).  So, it wouldn&#8217;t take long for nothing to line up.  Honestly it makes me mad, too much stuff rotating/orbiting/regressing/ascending/precessing that there&#8217;s little you can do to sync it all. <img src='http://selenianboondocks.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Eric Collins</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/02/orbital-mechanics-tricksiness-to-increase-the-frequency-of-tli-opportunities-for-leo-depots/comment-page-1/#comment-4504</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Apr 2009 21:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=902#comment-4504</guid>
		<description>That sounds good.  For lunar missions, you would like to get into an orbit as close to the lunar plane as possible as soon as possible.  Ideally, we&#039;d like to have a LEO station in an orbit coplanar with the moon or the ecliptic, from which lunar or planetary missions could be staged.

Unfortunately, we don&#039;t have any launch facilities far enough south to take advantage of these low inclination orbits.  Cape Canaveral is at about 28.6 degrees north latitude and this is currently the only launch site from which the US can launch crewed missions.  SpaceX has been able to launch from the Kwajalein atoll at about 9.1 degrees north latitude, but as far as I can tell, they are currently not able to handle anything larger than a Falcon 1.  Probably the most favorable site is the ESA&#039;s launch site in French Guiana at about 5 degrees north latitude.  This site can launch the Arianne 5 and is supposed to be able to handle Soyuz vehicles sometime in the near future.

Getting into orbits with an inclination higher than the launch latitude is fairly trivial.  The only penalty you pay is for how much of the Earth&#039;s rotational velocity you ignore by not launching due east.  To get into a lower inclination orbit, however, you still have to do a plane change.  Hence the discussion above.

With our present rocket technology, we can just barely get crews into orbit.  Once the inclination of that orbit is established (at the launch latitude or higher) it is fairly expensive to make any significant plane changes.  Thus if the depots are established in a LEO that can be easily reached from the surface, then perhaps there would be sufficient fuel reserves to make the required plane changes, however, you are now restricted by the phasing (timing) constraints dictated by orbital mechanics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That sounds good.  For lunar missions, you would like to get into an orbit as close to the lunar plane as possible as soon as possible.  Ideally, we&#8217;d like to have a LEO station in an orbit coplanar with the moon or the ecliptic, from which lunar or planetary missions could be staged.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, we don&#8217;t have any launch facilities far enough south to take advantage of these low inclination orbits.  Cape Canaveral is at about 28.6 degrees north latitude and this is currently the only launch site from which the US can launch crewed missions.  SpaceX has been able to launch from the Kwajalein atoll at about 9.1 degrees north latitude, but as far as I can tell, they are currently not able to handle anything larger than a Falcon 1.  Probably the most favorable site is the ESA&#8217;s launch site in French Guiana at about 5 degrees north latitude.  This site can launch the Arianne 5 and is supposed to be able to handle Soyuz vehicles sometime in the near future.</p>
<p>Getting into orbits with an inclination higher than the launch latitude is fairly trivial.  The only penalty you pay is for how much of the Earth&#8217;s rotational velocity you ignore by not launching due east.  To get into a lower inclination orbit, however, you still have to do a plane change.  Hence the discussion above.</p>
<p>With our present rocket technology, we can just barely get crews into orbit.  Once the inclination of that orbit is established (at the launch latitude or higher) it is fairly expensive to make any significant plane changes.  Thus if the depots are established in a LEO that can be easily reached from the surface, then perhaps there would be sufficient fuel reserves to make the required plane changes, however, you are now restricted by the phasing (timing) constraints dictated by orbital mechanics.</p>
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		<title>By: Martijn Meijering</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/02/orbital-mechanics-tricksiness-to-increase-the-frequency-of-tli-opportunities-for-leo-depots/comment-page-1/#comment-4503</link>
		<dc:creator>Martijn Meijering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Apr 2009 18:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=902#comment-4503</guid>
		<description>Bump. Can anyone comment on Joey&#039;s suggestion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bump. Can anyone comment on Joey&#8217;s suggestion?</p>
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		<title>By: Joey</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/02/orbital-mechanics-tricksiness-to-increase-the-frequency-of-tli-opportunities-for-leo-depots/comment-page-1/#comment-4446</link>
		<dc:creator>Joey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 08:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=902#comment-4446</guid>
		<description>Maybe I missed the conversation but here goes.  As I skimmed over most of the comments I didn&#039;t see this mentioned: why isn&#039;t the LEO depot just in the same orbital plane as the moon, or at least near it?  As far as I know the Moon has an orbital inclination of 5.145° to the ecliptic (Earth&#039;s orbital plane around the sun as you probably know) which means it varies between 18.295° and 28.585° relative to the Earth&#039;s axial tilt of 23.44°.  So if you have a launch site at less than 18.295° latitude you should have 2 opportunities per day to launch into the same orbital plane as the Moon.  Once in this orbit you basically get a launch window to the Moon/L1/L2 every orbit.  The stability of the orbit over the long term is something that seems doable, as the precession of the lunar nodes is on a 18.6 year cycle and it seems like if your going to build a propellant station you could afford to have an electric propulsion system to slowly precess the orbit over that long period.  But even if you didn&#039;t want to do have a correction system, you could just place your LEO depot exactly on the ecliptic (with a constant 23.4° inclination to the equator).  Slowly the Lunar plane would precess with the inclination for each launch from your LEO depot changing between a min of 0° and max of 5.145°.  Even with the really high delta-v you need to do plane changes in LEO, 5.145° means you only need about 700 m/s max.  And it seems like 5.145° is low enough that you could do some kind of mid course correction anyways, but I don&#039;t know enough to say that with confidence.  So to summarize, as far as I can tell as long as you put your LEO depot near the ecliptic plane you&#039;re orbit is never inclined more than 5.145° from the Moon&#039;s orbit, and if you have active control it could probably be synced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I missed the conversation but here goes.  As I skimmed over most of the comments I didn&#8217;t see this mentioned: why isn&#8217;t the LEO depot just in the same orbital plane as the moon, or at least near it?  As far as I know the Moon has an orbital inclination of 5.145° to the ecliptic (Earth&#8217;s orbital plane around the sun as you probably know) which means it varies between 18.295° and 28.585° relative to the Earth&#8217;s axial tilt of 23.44°.  So if you have a launch site at less than 18.295° latitude you should have 2 opportunities per day to launch into the same orbital plane as the Moon.  Once in this orbit you basically get a launch window to the Moon/L1/L2 every orbit.  The stability of the orbit over the long term is something that seems doable, as the precession of the lunar nodes is on a 18.6 year cycle and it seems like if your going to build a propellant station you could afford to have an electric propulsion system to slowly precess the orbit over that long period.  But even if you didn&#8217;t want to do have a correction system, you could just place your LEO depot exactly on the ecliptic (with a constant 23.4° inclination to the equator).  Slowly the Lunar plane would precess with the inclination for each launch from your LEO depot changing between a min of 0° and max of 5.145°.  Even with the really high delta-v you need to do plane changes in LEO, 5.145° means you only need about 700 m/s max.  And it seems like 5.145° is low enough that you could do some kind of mid course correction anyways, but I don&#8217;t know enough to say that with confidence.  So to summarize, as far as I can tell as long as you put your LEO depot near the ecliptic plane you&#8217;re orbit is never inclined more than 5.145° from the Moon&#8217;s orbit, and if you have active control it could probably be synced.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Goff</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/02/orbital-mechanics-tricksiness-to-increase-the-frequency-of-tli-opportunities-for-leo-depots/comment-page-1/#comment-4408</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Goff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=902#comment-4408</guid>
		<description>Martijn,
I still think we&#039;re talking past each other.  What I mean, is if you have to choose between waiting 4 days, then doing a 3 day transfer that costs ~4200m/s to get from LEO to LLO, vs leaving right away for a 7 day transfer that costs ~5000-6000m/s of delta-V to go from LEO to L4/L5 to LLO...there wouldn&#039;t really be much point of taking the more roundabout route.  Now, if the second one took more time, but cost a lot less propellant, that would be one thing.  But slower (or just as slow), but a lot more propellant, and it isn&#039;t actually gaining you anything.

~Jon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martijn,<br />
I still think we&#8217;re talking past each other.  What I mean, is if you have to choose between waiting 4 days, then doing a 3 day transfer that costs ~4200m/s to get from LEO to LLO, vs leaving right away for a 7 day transfer that costs ~5000-6000m/s of delta-V to go from LEO to L4/L5 to LLO&#8230;there wouldn&#8217;t really be much point of taking the more roundabout route.  Now, if the second one took more time, but cost a lot less propellant, that would be one thing.  But slower (or just as slow), but a lot more propellant, and it isn&#8217;t actually gaining you anything.</p>
<p>~Jon</p>
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		<title>By: Martijn Meijering</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/02/orbital-mechanics-tricksiness-to-increase-the-frequency-of-tli-opportunities-for-leo-depots/comment-page-1/#comment-4407</link>
		<dc:creator>Martijn Meijering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=902#comment-4407</guid>
		<description>Jon,

&quot;but it also needs to not take so long that you’d be better off just waiting a few days for another launch window.&quot;

I can see why that would be so if you had to go to the moon in a hurry. What application are you thinking of?

Martijn</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon,</p>
<p>&#8220;but it also needs to not take so long that you’d be better off just waiting a few days for another launch window.&#8221;</p>
<p>I can see why that would be so if you had to go to the moon in a hurry. What application are you thinking of?</p>
<p>Martijn</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Goff</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/02/orbital-mechanics-tricksiness-to-increase-the-frequency-of-tli-opportunities-for-leo-depots/comment-page-1/#comment-4406</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Goff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=902#comment-4406</guid>
		<description>Martijn,
I think we&#039;re talking past each other a bit.  What I&#039;m saying is that for a given depot, you have cheap, no-trickiness departure opportunities every ~9 days (plus or minus some depending on inclination and altitude of your station).  Say you&#039;re at the worst position, 4.5 days out from your next in-plane launch opportunity.  Your choices are either a) launch right away and do something tricky that will take extra time and delta-V, or b) wait another 4.5 days, and launch then with the non-tricky, lower delta-V orbit.  

If the added time is only 12-24 hrs, then it really buys you something to be able to leave whenever you want.  But if it adds 4 days to your trip, you haven&#039;t gained anything.  Your payload arrives at the moon at about the same time both ways, but in one way you have a simple two-burn trajectory, and in the other you have a complex trajectory with more delta-V requirements...

So my point is any &quot;launch any time from an LEO station&quot; approach has to not only cost little extra delta-V, but it also needs to not take so long that you&#039;d be better off just waiting a few days for another launch window.

~Jon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martijn,<br />
I think we&#8217;re talking past each other a bit.  What I&#8217;m saying is that for a given depot, you have cheap, no-trickiness departure opportunities every ~9 days (plus or minus some depending on inclination and altitude of your station).  Say you&#8217;re at the worst position, 4.5 days out from your next in-plane launch opportunity.  Your choices are either a) launch right away and do something tricky that will take extra time and delta-V, or b) wait another 4.5 days, and launch then with the non-tricky, lower delta-V orbit.  </p>
<p>If the added time is only 12-24 hrs, then it really buys you something to be able to leave whenever you want.  But if it adds 4 days to your trip, you haven&#8217;t gained anything.  Your payload arrives at the moon at about the same time both ways, but in one way you have a simple two-burn trajectory, and in the other you have a complex trajectory with more delta-V requirements&#8230;</p>
<p>So my point is any &#8220;launch any time from an LEO station&#8221; approach has to not only cost little extra delta-V, but it also needs to not take so long that you&#8217;d be better off just waiting a few days for another launch window.</p>
<p>~Jon</p>
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		<title>By: Martijn Meijering</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2009/02/orbital-mechanics-tricksiness-to-increase-the-frequency-of-tli-opportunities-for-leo-depots/comment-page-1/#comment-4405</link>
		<dc:creator>Martijn Meijering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=902#comment-4405</guid>
		<description>As always, it depends on what goal you are trying to achieve. If it is having a new market that is accessible to new, relatively small players (a worthy goal imo), then you&#039;re ok for Earth to LEO. Small players can launch to LEO. Other players can transport stuff or people from LEO to Lagrange points.

For transport beyond LEO, small players would need to refuel at a depot. For cargo the resulting delay should not be a problem. For passengers it might be. But assuming that most of the traffic would be tourism, a delay might not be a problem, as long as you can stay a relatively comfortable space station. Think of it as a cruise. After the initial excitement of a launch, you get to enjoy the view from LEO for a couple of days. Then you move on to a Lagrange station, then you fly around the moon a couple of times before heading back to a Lagrange point and then back to Earth, possibly via the LEO station. All of these destinations have different touristic qualities. Sounds exciting!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As always, it depends on what goal you are trying to achieve. If it is having a new market that is accessible to new, relatively small players (a worthy goal imo), then you&#8217;re ok for Earth to LEO. Small players can launch to LEO. Other players can transport stuff or people from LEO to Lagrange points.</p>
<p>For transport beyond LEO, small players would need to refuel at a depot. For cargo the resulting delay should not be a problem. For passengers it might be. But assuming that most of the traffic would be tourism, a delay might not be a problem, as long as you can stay a relatively comfortable space station. Think of it as a cruise. After the initial excitement of a launch, you get to enjoy the view from LEO for a couple of days. Then you move on to a Lagrange station, then you fly around the moon a couple of times before heading back to a Lagrange point and then back to Earth, possibly via the LEO station. All of these destinations have different touristic qualities. Sounds exciting!</p>
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