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	<title>Comments on: Propellant Depot Policy Thoughts</title>
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	<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/12/propellant-depot-policy-thoughts/</link>
	<description>Random Musings from the Warped Minds of Jonathan Goff, Ken Murphy, John Hare, and Kirk Sorensen</description>
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		<title>By: Andrew Swallow</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/12/propellant-depot-policy-thoughts/comment-page-2/#comment-4194</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Swallow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=852#comment-4194</guid>
		<description>I was just working from first principles.  Sulphur is the element below oxygen in the periodic table so it should perform similar chemical reactions.  A quick look at sulphur compounds showed that many were gases, giving a nice expansion = thrust.  Examples SO2, H2S and CS2.

The advantage of sulphur was that is a solid over lunar temperature so it does not need refrigeration to prevent boil off.  This could simplify both the depot and the rocket.

Unfortunately the Moon (unlike Mars) is short of the normal fuels like carbon, hydrogen and nitrogen.  For use as a fuel or oxidiser lunar sulphur may be too rare without major mining.  Oxygen is plentiful but only exists in compounds.  Common lunar elements are silicon, iron, calcium, aluminium and magnesium - all of which burn when powdered.

Using solar power to extract both oxygen and metal from luna regolith then burning the pair as a propellant is possible, particularly if the mixture is lox rich.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just working from first principles.  Sulphur is the element below oxygen in the periodic table so it should perform similar chemical reactions.  A quick look at sulphur compounds showed that many were gases, giving a nice expansion = thrust.  Examples SO2, H2S and CS2.</p>
<p>The advantage of sulphur was that is a solid over lunar temperature so it does not need refrigeration to prevent boil off.  This could simplify both the depot and the rocket.</p>
<p>Unfortunately the Moon (unlike Mars) is short of the normal fuels like carbon, hydrogen and nitrogen.  For use as a fuel or oxidiser lunar sulphur may be too rare without major mining.  Oxygen is plentiful but only exists in compounds.  Common lunar elements are silicon, iron, calcium, aluminium and magnesium &#8211; all of which burn when powdered.</p>
<p>Using solar power to extract both oxygen and metal from luna regolith then burning the pair as a propellant is possible, particularly if the mixture is lox rich.</p>
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		<title>By: Martijn Meijering</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/12/propellant-depot-policy-thoughts/comment-page-2/#comment-4171</link>
		<dc:creator>Martijn Meijering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 01:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=852#comment-4171</guid>
		<description>&gt; If you do not want to use cryogenic LOX then sulphur could be used as the oxidiser. You would have to design new rocket engines.

Are you referring to the &quot;brimstone rocket&quot; proposed by Vaniman, Pettit, and Heiken? It still uses LOX, the sulphur is the fuel, not the oxidiser. The intriguing advantage is that sulphur is apparently relatively plentiful on the moon, so you could produce both fuel and oxidiser on the moon, instead of importing it all the way from earth. Combined with reusable landers, vasimr cargo transport and orbital infrastructure this could lead to considerable savings in fuel or ,uch more downloaded cargo.

From what I understand ESA, unlike NASA, wants to focus a lot of its attention and lunar activities on building the sort of orbital structures inside the Earth moon system that many people on this blog are interested in...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; If you do not want to use cryogenic LOX then sulphur could be used as the oxidiser. You would have to design new rocket engines.</p>
<p>Are you referring to the &#8220;brimstone rocket&#8221; proposed by Vaniman, Pettit, and Heiken? It still uses LOX, the sulphur is the fuel, not the oxidiser. The intriguing advantage is that sulphur is apparently relatively plentiful on the moon, so you could produce both fuel and oxidiser on the moon, instead of importing it all the way from earth. Combined with reusable landers, vasimr cargo transport and orbital infrastructure this could lead to considerable savings in fuel or ,uch more downloaded cargo.</p>
<p>From what I understand ESA, unlike NASA, wants to focus a lot of its attention and lunar activities on building the sort of orbital structures inside the Earth moon system that many people on this blog are interested in&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck2200</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/12/propellant-depot-policy-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-4163</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck2200</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 14:19:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=852#comment-4163</guid>
		<description>kert: &lt;i&gt;Also note by rough estimation that the launch cost for this is about 1/10th of the mission price. It does not seem to me that a convincing case can be made of fuel depot advantages for planetary probes.&lt;/i&gt;

The value of depots (notice the plural) is not necessarily in the cost of the launch, but will find its greatest utility by being an &quot;enabler&quot;. There are only a few nations capable of launching rockets large enough to actually participate in a meaningful way in space exploration. But there are many more with decent launch capability to LEO that &lt;i&gt;could&lt;/i&gt; participate if they were able to dedicate their lift capacity to the spacecraft, and not to the mission propellant. Remember that in some cases up to 80% of the spacecraft mass is propellant. Being able to &quot;gas up&quot; once in orbit before setting off on the mission would enable many more players from around the globe to participate and would enable vastly superior probes from all nations, even the big boys, to head into the solar system. A 20 ton spacecraft that is actually 20 tons of spacecraft and not 4 tons of spacecraft and 16 tons of propellant at launch is a far more useful probe.
-Chuck</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kert: <i>Also note by rough estimation that the launch cost for this is about 1/10th of the mission price. It does not seem to me that a convincing case can be made of fuel depot advantages for planetary probes.</i></p>
<p>The value of depots (notice the plural) is not necessarily in the cost of the launch, but will find its greatest utility by being an &#8220;enabler&#8221;. There are only a few nations capable of launching rockets large enough to actually participate in a meaningful way in space exploration. But there are many more with decent launch capability to LEO that <i>could</i> participate if they were able to dedicate their lift capacity to the spacecraft, and not to the mission propellant. Remember that in some cases up to 80% of the spacecraft mass is propellant. Being able to &#8220;gas up&#8221; once in orbit before setting off on the mission would enable many more players from around the globe to participate and would enable vastly superior probes from all nations, even the big boys, to head into the solar system. A 20 ton spacecraft that is actually 20 tons of spacecraft and not 4 tons of spacecraft and 16 tons of propellant at launch is a far more useful probe.<br />
-Chuck</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Collins</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/12/propellant-depot-policy-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-4075</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=852#comment-4075</guid>
		<description>The ISS already possesses several electrolysis units, both U.S. and Russian.  The raw materials are water (usually waste water or condensate), and carbon-dioxide (produced by the crew).  Currently, the water is split with the oxygen being vented into the cabin and the hydrogen being dumped overboard.  The plumbing already exists to connect a Sabatier reactor to the hydrogen stream, and if I&#039;m not mistaken, one was supposed to fly with Node 3.  This reactor would pull carbon-dioxide from the air and combine it with the hydrogen to form methane (CH4) and oxygen.

For the purposes of demonstrating the key technologies required for propellant depots, only small amounts of hydrogen, oxygen, and methane need to be set aside for testing the handling properties of cryogenic fluids in micro-gravity.  If the tests are successful, then perhaps a pilot plant could be established.  In addition to providing fuel for reboosting the station, the depot might also be able to support a handful of ISS-servicing tugs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ISS already possesses several electrolysis units, both U.S. and Russian.  The raw materials are water (usually waste water or condensate), and carbon-dioxide (produced by the crew).  Currently, the water is split with the oxygen being vented into the cabin and the hydrogen being dumped overboard.  The plumbing already exists to connect a Sabatier reactor to the hydrogen stream, and if I&#8217;m not mistaken, one was supposed to fly with Node 3.  This reactor would pull carbon-dioxide from the air and combine it with the hydrogen to form methane (CH4) and oxygen.</p>
<p>For the purposes of demonstrating the key technologies required for propellant depots, only small amounts of hydrogen, oxygen, and methane need to be set aside for testing the handling properties of cryogenic fluids in micro-gravity.  If the tests are successful, then perhaps a pilot plant could be established.  In addition to providing fuel for reboosting the station, the depot might also be able to support a handful of ISS-servicing tugs.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Swallow</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/12/propellant-depot-policy-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-4070</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Swallow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=852#comment-4070</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Would it make sense to start with nitrous oxide instead of oxygen as an oxidiser to reduce cryogenic problems?&lt;/i&gt;

If you do not want to use cryogenic LOX then sulphur could be used as the oxidiser.  You would have to design new rocket engines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Would it make sense to start with nitrous oxide instead of oxygen as an oxidiser to reduce cryogenic problems?</i></p>
<p>If you do not want to use cryogenic LOX then sulphur could be used as the oxidiser.  You would have to design new rocket engines.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Smith</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/12/propellant-depot-policy-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-4046</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 01:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=852#comment-4046</guid>
		<description>Where would they get the raw materials?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where would they get the raw materials?</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Collins</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/12/propellant-depot-policy-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-4032</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=852#comment-4032</guid>
		<description>I still think that the ISS would make a great place to start testing out propellant depot technologies.  They already have almost everything they need on orbit to start manufacturing propellants.  All that they are missing is some cryo-tanks, liquefiers, and possibly a Sabatier reactor if they wanted to throw in methane as a additional propellant choice.  Plumbing might be a non-trivial task, though.

Does anybody have any idea what it would cost to pitch this idea to NASA?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still think that the ISS would make a great place to start testing out propellant depot technologies.  They already have almost everything they need on orbit to start manufacturing propellants.  All that they are missing is some cryo-tanks, liquefiers, and possibly a Sabatier reactor if they wanted to throw in methane as a additional propellant choice.  Plumbing might be a non-trivial task, though.</p>
<p>Does anybody have any idea what it would cost to pitch this idea to NASA?</p>
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		<title>By: Martijn Meijering</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/12/propellant-depot-policy-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-4024</link>
		<dc:creator>Martijn Meijering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=852#comment-4024</guid>
		<description>Would it make sense to start with nitrous oxide instead of oxygen as an oxidiser to reduce cryogenic problems? I can&#039;t find the specific impulse of N2O/kerosene, but apparently N2O/propane is on the order of 220 s. This isn&#039;t great, but perhaps doable. Then you&#039;d have both fuel and oxidiser that were non-cryogenic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would it make sense to start with nitrous oxide instead of oxygen as an oxidiser to reduce cryogenic problems? I can&#8217;t find the specific impulse of N2O/kerosene, but apparently N2O/propane is on the order of 220 s. This isn&#8217;t great, but perhaps doable. Then you&#8217;d have both fuel and oxidiser that were non-cryogenic.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Swallow</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/12/propellant-depot-policy-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-4016</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Swallow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:21:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=852#comment-4016</guid>
		<description>If you are supplying propellant to Falcon-1 and Falcon-9 upper stages then both use non-cryo kerosene (RP-1).  See page 8 of SpaceX&#039;s User Guide.
http://www.spacex.com/Falcon1UsersGuide.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are supplying propellant to Falcon-1 and Falcon-9 upper stages then both use non-cryo kerosene (RP-1).  See page 8 of SpaceX&#8217;s User Guide.<br />
<a href="http://www.spacex.com/Falcon1UsersGuide.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.spacex.com/Falcon1UsersGuide.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Goff</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/12/propellant-depot-policy-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-4014</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Goff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=852#comment-4014</guid>
		<description>Yup,
And for propellant deliveries, Dnepr&#039;s reliability isn&#039;t as much of a liability.  Plus, you&#039;re ridding the world of some more ICBMs, which is a definite good thing.

~Jon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yup,<br />
And for propellant deliveries, Dnepr&#8217;s reliability isn&#8217;t as much of a liability.  Plus, you&#8217;re ridding the world of some more ICBMs, which is a definite good thing.</p>
<p>~Jon</p>
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