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	<title>Comments on: Stable and Light?</title>
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	<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/11/stable-and-light/</link>
	<description>Random Musings from the Warped Minds of Jonathan Goff, Ken Murphy, John Hare, and Kirk Sorensen</description>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/11/stable-and-light/comment-page-1/#comment-3759</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=792#comment-3759</guid>
		<description>Paul,
I&#039;m trying to think my way around the problem you pointed out.

Tim,
You have given me a few ideas to check on.

James,
As far as I can tell, that concept is only useful on vehicles with really bad injector design. It isn&#039;t really useful on newer vehicles with better designs. The flow rate on rockets is such that the device wouldn&#039;t have time to do it&#039;s trick.

Several contracts activated a couple of weeks ago which put me to the six day week of pushing instead of the short weeks of the last several months. These idea posts will be infrequent as long as the push is on. Happy holidays all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,<br />
I&#8217;m trying to think my way around the problem you pointed out.</p>
<p>Tim,<br />
You have given me a few ideas to check on.</p>
<p>James,<br />
As far as I can tell, that concept is only useful on vehicles with really bad injector design. It isn&#8217;t really useful on newer vehicles with better designs. The flow rate on rockets is such that the device wouldn&#8217;t have time to do it&#8217;s trick.</p>
<p>Several contracts activated a couple of weeks ago which put me to the six day week of pushing instead of the short weeks of the last several months. These idea posts will be infrequent as long as the push is on. Happy holidays all.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/11/stable-and-light/comment-page-1/#comment-3745</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 05:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=792#comment-3745</guid>
		<description>Rather than having the fuel and oxidiser in two layers, you might be able to have alternating channels containing fuel and oxidiser flows spiraling up the combustion chamber. That way the two liquids would be separated so they don&#039;t form an explosive. I suspect you might get better combustion with alternating spiraling layers of fuel/oxidiser than with bubbles of GOX haphazzardly breaking through the kero. The channels would also add some structural rigidity to the chamber, but could cause a bit of a cooling challenge. Another way to picture this is as channel wall regenerative cooling with the wall facing the combustion chamber removed, and with both oxidiser and fuel flow instead of just one. 

Speculatively, I wonder if there is some benefit in injecting the fuel right at the throat, as is done on the vortex engines. This &lt;i&gt;might&lt;/i&gt; allow you to direct some of the flow down the nozzle to both cool the nozzle and provide some thrust augmentation. This would of course create many many concerns that need to be addressed.

I suspect that you can get around the positive feedback problem if you enrich the flow with the propellant that has the higher evaporative rate. If the chamber gets too hot, the mixture enriches  and cools; if it get too cool, the mixture goes towards stochiometric and heats up. I suspect that increasing chamber pressure will reduce the rate of evaporation to provide a bit of negative feedback as well, but my thermodynamics is a bit hazy in this area.

One final tangent, how insulative is RP-1? An old idea I had was to wrap the kero tank around the LOX tank. This gives you less surface area to insulate (if any), and a less sticklike LV. Problems are heat transfer from the LOX to the kero (you might get around this by prechilling the kero), and probably higher tank weight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rather than having the fuel and oxidiser in two layers, you might be able to have alternating channels containing fuel and oxidiser flows spiraling up the combustion chamber. That way the two liquids would be separated so they don&#8217;t form an explosive. I suspect you might get better combustion with alternating spiraling layers of fuel/oxidiser than with bubbles of GOX haphazzardly breaking through the kero. The channels would also add some structural rigidity to the chamber, but could cause a bit of a cooling challenge. Another way to picture this is as channel wall regenerative cooling with the wall facing the combustion chamber removed, and with both oxidiser and fuel flow instead of just one. </p>
<p>Speculatively, I wonder if there is some benefit in injecting the fuel right at the throat, as is done on the vortex engines. This <i>might</i> allow you to direct some of the flow down the nozzle to both cool the nozzle and provide some thrust augmentation. This would of course create many many concerns that need to be addressed.</p>
<p>I suspect that you can get around the positive feedback problem if you enrich the flow with the propellant that has the higher evaporative rate. If the chamber gets too hot, the mixture enriches  and cools; if it get too cool, the mixture goes towards stochiometric and heats up. I suspect that increasing chamber pressure will reduce the rate of evaporation to provide a bit of negative feedback as well, but my thermodynamics is a bit hazy in this area.</p>
<p>One final tangent, how insulative is RP-1? An old idea I had was to wrap the kero tank around the LOX tank. This gives you less surface area to insulate (if any), and a less sticklike LV. Problems are heat transfer from the LOX to the kero (you might get around this by prechilling the kero), and probably higher tank weight.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/11/stable-and-light/comment-page-1/#comment-3721</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 04:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=792#comment-3721</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been wondering why one of the NewSpace startups  don&#039;t try the following trick in a rocket engine:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/09/researchers-fin.html

Seems like it should provide the same kind of improved combustion efficiency  that it does in ICEs, and it would not require much more than wrapping a coil around the fuel  and oxidixer input lines.

                jak</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been wondering why one of the NewSpace startups  don&#8217;t try the following trick in a rocket engine:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/09/researchers-fin.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/09/researchers-fin.html</a></p>
<p>Seems like it should provide the same kind of improved combustion efficiency  that it does in ICEs, and it would not require much more than wrapping a coil around the fuel  and oxidixer input lines.</p>
<p>                jak</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Breed</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/11/stable-and-light/comment-page-1/#comment-3720</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Breed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 02:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=792#comment-3720</guid>
		<description>See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEv8-7UleDc
Mixing Liquid Lox and Liquid Keroscene in the presence of flame is &quot;Bad&quot;  The amount of energy released and the physical destruction of hardware from a minor Lox/RP! hard start is spectacular....
This was less than  a liter of mixed propellants and it broke a bunch of grade 8 high strength bolts like they were baslawood.
The bolts were not stripped, were fractured in the middle, this is in a pretty beefy piece of steel. See some really nice LR101 pictures by  looking up ebay item 200276795091</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See:<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEv8-7UleDc" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEv8-7UleDc</a><br />
Mixing Liquid Lox and Liquid Keroscene in the presence of flame is &#8220;Bad&#8221;  The amount of energy released and the physical destruction of hardware from a minor Lox/RP! hard start is spectacular&#8230;.<br />
This was less than  a liter of mixed propellants and it broke a bunch of grade 8 high strength bolts like they were baslawood.<br />
The bolts were not stripped, were fractured in the middle, this is in a pretty beefy piece of steel. See some really nice LR101 pictures by  looking up ebay item 200276795091</p>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/11/stable-and-light/comment-page-1/#comment-3717</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=792#comment-3717</guid>
		<description>I hadn&#039;t thought of the positive feedback problem, though the variable boil off seemed serious enough to think of increasing the L* to compensate. I wonder if the positive feedback could actually lead to a very short chamber. It just might require too many dollars of testing to make it worth investigating.

I believe liquid kerosene and liquid oxygen together are well below ignition temperature and the different densities will tend to keep them separated for the few milliseconds in question. As the temperature rises, they boil off into the combustion zone before ignition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hadn&#8217;t thought of the positive feedback problem, though the variable boil off seemed serious enough to think of increasing the L* to compensate. I wonder if the positive feedback could actually lead to a very short chamber. It just might require too many dollars of testing to make it worth investigating.</p>
<p>I believe liquid kerosene and liquid oxygen together are well below ignition temperature and the different densities will tend to keep them separated for the few milliseconds in question. As the temperature rises, they boil off into the combustion zone before ignition.</p>
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		<title>By: Iain McClatchie</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/11/stable-and-light/comment-page-1/#comment-3713</link>
		<dc:creator>Iain McClatchie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=792#comment-3713</guid>
		<description>Kerosene mixed with liquid oxygen is an explosive.

Mixing is a serious problem in rocket engines.  The basic problem is that large volumes of propellants must be mixed in a few milliseconds.

Gas phase mixing is a problem, if at reasonable pressures, because the volume flow is large.  Liquid phase mixing leads to a dense explosive.  Gas/liquid mixing seems best.  I think the shuttle has many annular injectors that inject liquid oxygen droplets at low velocity surrounded by a fast-moving stream of hot gaseous hydrogen.  The oxygen evaporates off the surface of the droplet and mixes with the hydrogen in the turbulent wake of the droplet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kerosene mixed with liquid oxygen is an explosive.</p>
<p>Mixing is a serious problem in rocket engines.  The basic problem is that large volumes of propellants must be mixed in a few milliseconds.</p>
<p>Gas phase mixing is a problem, if at reasonable pressures, because the volume flow is large.  Liquid phase mixing leads to a dense explosive.  Gas/liquid mixing seems best.  I think the shuttle has many annular injectors that inject liquid oxygen droplets at low velocity surrounded by a fast-moving stream of hot gaseous hydrogen.  The oxygen evaporates off the surface of the droplet and mixes with the hydrogen in the turbulent wake of the droplet.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Breed</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/11/stable-and-light/comment-page-1/#comment-3712</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Breed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:04:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=792#comment-3712</guid>
		<description>Two big problems...
The fuel and Ox will not boil at the same rate, so it will go rich lean rich lean etc.....

An Injecter provides negative feedback, IE if the chamber pressure increases the injectors flow less.....this has  positive feedback more 
energy more boiling more energy etc.....
Leading to an ungodly heavy chamber or Rapid unplanned dis assembly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two big problems&#8230;<br />
The fuel and Ox will not boil at the same rate, so it will go rich lean rich lean etc&#8230;..</p>
<p>An Injecter provides negative feedback, IE if the chamber pressure increases the injectors flow less&#8230;..this has  positive feedback more<br />
energy more boiling more energy etc&#8230;..<br />
Leading to an ungodly heavy chamber or Rapid unplanned dis assembly.</p>
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