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	<title>Comments on: Saddlespike Nozzle</title>
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	<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/10/634/</link>
	<description>Random Musings from the Warped Minds of Jonathan Goff, Ken Murphy, John Hare, and Kirk Sorensen</description>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/10/634/comment-page-1/#comment-3312</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 02:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=634#comment-3312</guid>
		<description>Guy,

Your links seem to lead to a short description of what they are going to do without any idea of how they got there. I didn&#039;t get anything to form an opinion from them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guy,</p>
<p>Your links seem to lead to a short description of what they are going to do without any idea of how they got there. I didn&#8217;t get anything to form an opinion from them.</p>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/10/634/comment-page-1/#comment-3297</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=634#comment-3297</guid>
		<description>James,

I&#039;m not an aerospace engineer either. My education in this field is self inflicted and it shows. Lack of funds is my reason for throwing these ideas out there in the hope that some of it proves useful to somebody in the real..

The aerospike/heatshield you suggest seems to resemble Rotary Rockets&#039; concept from the late 1990s. Except that their engines rotated. The main problem as you noted is the expense and risk. Someday it will be different. I got one paragragh from your transpiration link. It seems that they are working the problem.

Using available thrust chambers and salvaged turbine assemblies And tested landing systems seems to be the way forward to me. The saddlespike could be tested in a weekend by glassing a couple of short bell nozzles together. A pump system could be designed around a salvaged aircraft turbine disk, turbine nozzle, shaft, and bearings. Armadillo could design a verticle landing system for an X38 type  vehicle to eliminate the parachutes and uncontrolled landings, really important for injured crew. And so on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not an aerospace engineer either. My education in this field is self inflicted and it shows. Lack of funds is my reason for throwing these ideas out there in the hope that some of it proves useful to somebody in the real..</p>
<p>The aerospike/heatshield you suggest seems to resemble Rotary Rockets&#8217; concept from the late 1990s. Except that their engines rotated. The main problem as you noted is the expense and risk. Someday it will be different. I got one paragragh from your transpiration link. It seems that they are working the problem.</p>
<p>Using available thrust chambers and salvaged turbine assemblies And tested landing systems seems to be the way forward to me. The saddlespike could be tested in a weekend by glassing a couple of short bell nozzles together. A pump system could be designed around a salvaged aircraft turbine disk, turbine nozzle, shaft, and bearings. Armadillo could design a verticle landing system for an X38 type  vehicle to eliminate the parachutes and uncontrolled landings, really important for injured crew. And so on.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/10/634/comment-page-1/#comment-3294</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 03:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=634#comment-3294</guid>
		<description>Jon and John,
I&#039;ve actually been fantasizing about an aerospike for quite a while. It&#039;s been fantasizing because I am not an aerospace engineer and don&#039;t have the tools, training nor time to do any serious design work (nor of course the money to really build anything :-).

What attracts me most is the rather shallow depth and small size of the combustion chambers. This means that one could think about having a VTVL vehicle with a large, round bottom, wrapped around a spherical tank, in which the combustion chambers are embedded that could double as the TPS for orbital return. A material that I&#039;ve thought about is silcon carbide as a nanostructured ceramic forming polymer, such as Starfire Materials sells:
http://www.starfiresystems.com/
These materials are good up to 3300F and can be formed into a variety of shapes.

One could combine this with transpiration cooling for the thrust chamber. Transpiration cooling seems to result in some ISP improvement for pump fed engines. There&#039;s a great paper from DLRF about transpiration cooled thrust chambers (C/C rather than SiC though):
http://elib.dlr.de/15168/
A properly engineered transpiration cooling system could provide some thermal mitigation on orbital return as well.

What&#039;s the point of all this? Basically weight reduction through using lighter materials and through  having one assembly perform two functions: thrust on up and TPS on the way back. 

But who knows, maybe it won&#039;t even work, like I said, I&#039;m not an aerospace engineer. And, even if it did, like John pointed out in his blog post, none of the NewSpace startups can try something like this, it&#039;s too risky. In a startup, you get to push the envelope in one direction (for example, with Armadillo, it&#039;s throttable, steerable engines) but that&#039;s it. Any more and you&#039;re risking commercial viability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon and John,<br />
I&#8217;ve actually been fantasizing about an aerospike for quite a while. It&#8217;s been fantasizing because I am not an aerospace engineer and don&#8217;t have the tools, training nor time to do any serious design work (nor of course the money to really build anything <img src='http://selenianboondocks.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p>
<p>What attracts me most is the rather shallow depth and small size of the combustion chambers. This means that one could think about having a VTVL vehicle with a large, round bottom, wrapped around a spherical tank, in which the combustion chambers are embedded that could double as the TPS for orbital return. A material that I&#8217;ve thought about is silcon carbide as a nanostructured ceramic forming polymer, such as Starfire Materials sells:<br />
<a href="http://www.starfiresystems.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.starfiresystems.com/</a><br />
These materials are good up to 3300F and can be formed into a variety of shapes.</p>
<p>One could combine this with transpiration cooling for the thrust chamber. Transpiration cooling seems to result in some ISP improvement for pump fed engines. There&#8217;s a great paper from DLRF about transpiration cooled thrust chambers (C/C rather than SiC though):<br />
<a href="http://elib.dlr.de/15168/" rel="nofollow">http://elib.dlr.de/15168/</a><br />
A properly engineered transpiration cooling system could provide some thermal mitigation on orbital return as well.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s the point of all this? Basically weight reduction through using lighter materials and through  having one assembly perform two functions: thrust on up and TPS on the way back. </p>
<p>But who knows, maybe it won&#8217;t even work, like I said, I&#8217;m not an aerospace engineer. And, even if it did, like John pointed out in his blog post, none of the NewSpace startups can try something like this, it&#8217;s too risky. In a startup, you get to push the envelope in one direction (for example, with Armadillo, it&#8217;s throttable, steerable engines) but that&#8217;s it. Any more and you&#8217;re risking commercial viability.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/10/634/comment-page-1/#comment-3283</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 02:10:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=634#comment-3283</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a reference to an aerospike prototype that flew in 2003:

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=12631

It wasn&#039;t a linear aerospike though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a reference to an aerospike prototype that flew in 2003:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=12631" rel="nofollow">http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=12631</a></p>
<p>It wasn&#8217;t a linear aerospike though.</p>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/10/634/comment-page-1/#comment-3275</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=634#comment-3275</guid>
		<description>Gravityloss,

The two designs shown are suposed to be a traditional linear aerospike and the new saddlespike. The saddlespike is the only new type engine shown.

If the right, left, and bottom sides of the box shown are open to the atmosphere, then yes. It is like two bell nozzles with doors cut in one wall to the outside, and connecting channel between the two for the aerospike area. The drawing was not supposed to imply wider bell than normal. It should thin at the sides rather than the middle and increase in thickness as altitude increases.

To me, it does not resemble an expander deflector at all. I do have a track record of not understanding the meaning of a question however. Sometimes I might agree if I fully understand your meaning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gravityloss,</p>
<p>The two designs shown are suposed to be a traditional linear aerospike and the new saddlespike. The saddlespike is the only new type engine shown.</p>
<p>If the right, left, and bottom sides of the box shown are open to the atmosphere, then yes. It is like two bell nozzles with doors cut in one wall to the outside, and connecting channel between the two for the aerospike area. The drawing was not supposed to imply wider bell than normal. It should thin at the sides rather than the middle and increase in thickness as altitude increases.</p>
<p>To me, it does not resemble an expander deflector at all. I do have a track record of not understanding the meaning of a question however. Sometimes I might agree if I fully understand your meaning.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/10/634/comment-page-1/#comment-3274</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=634#comment-3274</guid>
		<description>Hi, 
I am not a rocket scientist, but can you comment on these two
ideas?  Thanks

The resultant hot gases are expanded through the nozzle 425 . Because the nozzle itself is manufactured of the solid fuel material (such as acrylic), the size of the nozzle expands as the motor burns. That is, at least a portion of the nozzle itself is burned and consumed because the nozzle is made of the solid fuel material. The initial flare of the nozzle 425  can be varied based on the altitude at which the motor is initially fired. 
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2007/0261386.html

And Also:
The annular hybrid motor is an improvement to hybrid rocket motor technology that can be used for a wide range of applications. The technology will lead to improvements in hybrid payload mass fraction, increased performance during throttling, and reduced costs associated with casting hybrid fuel grains. The technology is highly scalable and can be used for applications ranging from small thrusters on satellites, to launch vehicle booster applications.
http://sbir.nasa.gov/SBIR/abstracts/07/sbir/phase1/SBIR-07-1-X9.04-8618.html?solicitationId=SBIR_07_P1

Thanks, looking forward to any comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
I am not a rocket scientist, but can you comment on these two<br />
ideas?  Thanks</p>
<p>The resultant hot gases are expanded through the nozzle 425 . Because the nozzle itself is manufactured of the solid fuel material (such as acrylic), the size of the nozzle expands as the motor burns. That is, at least a portion of the nozzle itself is burned and consumed because the nozzle is made of the solid fuel material. The initial flare of the nozzle 425  can be varied based on the altitude at which the motor is initially fired.<br />
<a href="http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2007/0261386.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2007/0261386.html</a></p>
<p>And Also:<br />
The annular hybrid motor is an improvement to hybrid rocket motor technology that can be used for a wide range of applications. The technology will lead to improvements in hybrid payload mass fraction, increased performance during throttling, and reduced costs associated with casting hybrid fuel grains. The technology is highly scalable and can be used for applications ranging from small thrusters on satellites, to launch vehicle booster applications.<br />
<a href="http://sbir.nasa.gov/SBIR/abstracts/07/sbir/phase1/SBIR-07-1-X9.04-8618.html?solicitationId=SBIR_07_P1" rel="nofollow">http://sbir.nasa.gov/SBIR/abstracts/07/sbir/phase1/SBIR-07-1-X9.04-8618.html?solicitationId=SBIR_07_P1</a></p>
<p>Thanks, looking forward to any comments.</p>
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		<title>By: gravityloss</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/10/634/comment-page-1/#comment-3271</link>
		<dc:creator>gravityloss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:53:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=634#comment-3271</guid>
		<description>So the pictures actually show two designs, and not many views of one design?
So the new thing that eliminates the multiple thrust chambers of an aerospike is a very short linearish aerospike in a normalish (if wider) bell nozzle? And that would keep the flow still attached at low chamber pressures since it would start to thin in the middle rather than the sides?
Reminds me a bit of an expansion-deflection nozzle.
Do you mean something like this (no 3d curvature shown)?
http://i36.tinypic.com/o90kmh.png
&lt;a href=&quot;http://i36.tinypic.com/o90kmh.png&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;do links work?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the pictures actually show two designs, and not many views of one design?<br />
So the new thing that eliminates the multiple thrust chambers of an aerospike is a very short linearish aerospike in a normalish (if wider) bell nozzle? And that would keep the flow still attached at low chamber pressures since it would start to thin in the middle rather than the sides?<br />
Reminds me a bit of an expansion-deflection nozzle.<br />
Do you mean something like this (no 3d curvature shown)?<br />
<a href="http://i36.tinypic.com/o90kmh.png" rel="nofollow">http://i36.tinypic.com/o90kmh.png</a><br />
<a href="http://i36.tinypic.com/o90kmh.png" rel="nofollow">do links work?</a></p>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/10/634/comment-page-1/#comment-3267</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 23:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=634#comment-3267</guid>
		<description>Marcus,

I remember endwalls though much smaller than I drew. If you are right, then thrust/weight and cooling would be much easier. Redneck style, I think in terms of building large endwalls on a test article, and taking it to the test stand with a portable grinder. Cut the walls back between each test fire until you find the sweet spot.

You also corrected me on firing of the RS2200. I didn&#039;t think it had ever been fired all up ever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marcus,</p>
<p>I remember endwalls though much smaller than I drew. If you are right, then thrust/weight and cooling would be much easier. Redneck style, I think in terms of building large endwalls on a test article, and taking it to the test stand with a portable grinder. Cut the walls back between each test fire until you find the sweet spot.</p>
<p>You also corrected me on firing of the RS2200. I didn&#8217;t think it had ever been fired all up ever.</p>
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		<title>By: Marcus</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/10/634/comment-page-1/#comment-3266</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 22:37:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=634#comment-3266</guid>
		<description>Thanks, I can now see what you are talking about. Since your saddle-spike only has one engine per side, the expansion of the engine exhaust is limited by the saddle-spike on one side, by the end-walls on two sides and the remaining side would be the &quot;virtual&quot; bell of the air surrounding it. Sounds interesting (at least to a layman ;))

But having seen this beautiful picture of a XRS-2200 test firing again, I have to say that I seems they didn&#039;t bother with sidewalls at all for the linear aerospike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Twin_Linear_Aerospike_XRS-2200_Engine.jpg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, I can now see what you are talking about. Since your saddle-spike only has one engine per side, the expansion of the engine exhaust is limited by the saddle-spike on one side, by the end-walls on two sides and the remaining side would be the &#8220;virtual&#8221; bell of the air surrounding it. Sounds interesting (at least to a layman <img src='http://selenianboondocks.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
<p>But having seen this beautiful picture of a XRS-2200 test firing again, I have to say that I seems they didn&#8217;t bother with sidewalls at all for the linear aerospike: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Twin_Linear_Aerospike_XRS-2200_Engine.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Twin_Linear_Aerospike_XRS-2200_Engine.jpg</a></p>
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		<title>By: john hare</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/10/634/comment-page-1/#comment-3263</link>
		<dc:creator>john hare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 19:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=634#comment-3263</guid>
		<description>Gravityloss and Marcus,
I inserted another view that might help. Never having edited a blog post before, it didn&#039;t exactly go in the right place. My bitmap sketches will be crude for the most part, my engineering classes used pencils and drafting boards twenty mumble years back. But that was after sketch to scale on grid paper.

Tim,
Right in one. By using vanes to control the recirculation area, it might be possible to control the vehicle without the moving surfaces actually contacting the fast moving expansion stream. If that can work, then split rudders become feasible.

Jon,
I&#039;m not going to the mat for this specific approach, I&#039;ve got notebooks of others. Sturgeons law applies to my ideas. I will consider it a good day if someone that builds hardware tells me how stupid my orriginal was and how they fixed it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gravityloss and Marcus,<br />
I inserted another view that might help. Never having edited a blog post before, it didn&#8217;t exactly go in the right place. My bitmap sketches will be crude for the most part, my engineering classes used pencils and drafting boards twenty mumble years back. But that was after sketch to scale on grid paper.</p>
<p>Tim,<br />
Right in one. By using vanes to control the recirculation area, it might be possible to control the vehicle without the moving surfaces actually contacting the fast moving expansion stream. If that can work, then split rudders become feasible.</p>
<p>Jon,<br />
I&#8217;m not going to the mat for this specific approach, I&#8217;ve got notebooks of others. Sturgeons law applies to my ideas. I will consider it a good day if someone that builds hardware tells me how stupid my orriginal was and how they fixed it.</p>
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