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	<title>Comments on: An Insane, But Interesting Idea: Fleet Launched Orbital Craft</title>
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	<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/01/an-insane-but-interesting-idea-fleet-launched-orbital-craft/</link>
	<description>Random Musings from the Warped Minds of Jonathan Goff, Ken Murphy, John Hare, and Kirk Sorensen</description>
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		<title>By: Selenian Boondocks &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Random Thoughts/Orbital Access Methodologies VII: Air-Launched Glideforward TSTO with Exo-atmospheric Suborbital Refueling</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/01/an-insane-but-interesting-idea-fleet-launched-orbital-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-6274</link>
		<dc:creator>Selenian Boondocks &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Random Thoughts/Orbital Access Methodologies VII: Air-Launched Glideforward TSTO with Exo-atmospheric Suborbital Refueling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=458#comment-6274</guid>
		<description>[...] an offshoot of two ideas I&#8217;ve posted about previously (air-launched glideforward TSTO and Fleet Launched Orbital Craft), along with the Boom Rendezvous idea I just wrote [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] an offshoot of two ideas I&#8217;ve posted about previously (air-launched glideforward TSTO and Fleet Launched Orbital Craft), along with the Boom Rendezvous idea I just wrote [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Axel</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/01/an-insane-but-interesting-idea-fleet-launched-orbital-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-3264</link>
		<dc:creator>Axel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 21:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=458#comment-3264</guid>
		<description>After seeing Pixel hover I wondered: why not have many of them, loosely connected, hovering side by side, doing fuel crossfeed. Similar idea, no rendevous required, but very good formation flying capabilities needed. You can find some details on http://www.walthelm.net/FlyingCarpet/

In the end I&#039;ve been told fuel crossfeed is a lot more dangerous than a layman like me would expect. Crazy idea, but it was fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After seeing Pixel hover I wondered: why not have many of them, loosely connected, hovering side by side, doing fuel crossfeed. Similar idea, no rendevous required, but very good formation flying capabilities needed. You can find some details on <a href="http://www.walthelm.net/FlyingCarpet/" rel="nofollow">http://www.walthelm.net/FlyingCarpet/</a></p>
<p>In the end I&#8217;ve been told fuel crossfeed is a lot more dangerous than a layman like me would expect. Crazy idea, but it was fun.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/01/an-insane-but-interesting-idea-fleet-launched-orbital-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-2619</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=458#comment-2619</guid>
		<description>I find this concept fascinating.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Running the numbers with likely propellant combinations gives very promising results.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I suppose a baseline non-cryogenic design would use 98% peroxide and 1,2-butadiene as propellants.  The chamber would run at about 120bar and the ground nozzle would only expand it about 16:1, for an expected sea level ISP around 275-285.  During the first exo-atmospheric rendezvous, which would occur about 80km directly above the launch pads, you would also deploy a nozzle extender, increasing the expansion ratio to about 100:1, giving you an expected vacuum ISP of 330-340.  I foresee difficulties trying to loft a payload bigger than about half the dry mass of the plane module, but that should be enough to make the concept profitable.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It does seem that the rendezvous operation itself would have to be exceptionally low probability of failure, but I see no reason to expect that the required reliability would be impossible.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Also, the question of where the upper high-velocity sub-orbital stages would be able to land would become a significant issue.  I don&#039;t believe that they could all fly directly back to the launch site, unless they were refueled in mid-air.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;What I like about it most is that it scales directly from sub-orbital test flights to orbital missions without changing the design at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find this concept fascinating.</p>
<p>Running the numbers with likely propellant combinations gives very promising results.</p>
<p>I suppose a baseline non-cryogenic design would use 98% peroxide and 1,2-butadiene as propellants.  The chamber would run at about 120bar and the ground nozzle would only expand it about 16:1, for an expected sea level ISP around 275-285.  During the first exo-atmospheric rendezvous, which would occur about 80km directly above the launch pads, you would also deploy a nozzle extender, increasing the expansion ratio to about 100:1, giving you an expected vacuum ISP of 330-340.  I foresee difficulties trying to loft a payload bigger than about half the dry mass of the plane module, but that should be enough to make the concept profitable.</p>
<p>It does seem that the rendezvous operation itself would have to be exceptionally low probability of failure, but I see no reason to expect that the required reliability would be impossible.</p>
<p>Also, the question of where the upper high-velocity sub-orbital stages would be able to land would become a significant issue.  I don&#8217;t believe that they could all fly directly back to the launch site, unless they were refueled in mid-air.</p>
<p>What I like about it most is that it scales directly from sub-orbital test flights to orbital missions without changing the design at all.</p>
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		<title>By: redneck</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/01/an-insane-but-interesting-idea-fleet-launched-orbital-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-2586</link>
		<dc:creator>redneck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 01:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=458#comment-2586</guid>
		<description>This one is just too much fun to leave alone. At work today I  thought of another possibility for early use.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Start with Dave Salts&#039; 4 ton payload vehicles that have to be refueled leo before delivering a geo bird. After Dave has proved that he can quickly dock and move fuel in orbit, Just start moving the refueling process back toward the release from the lower stages. After a dozen or so launches, the mating could be early enough to seriously add to the fuel remaining in orbit. Two ships delivering a satelite and 6 tons of fuel instead of a satelite and 4 tons of fuel.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It also allows the tanker stage to be completely drained with no requirement for unusable reserve. He could eventually deliver 10 ton satelites instead of 4 ton ones.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;This could provide early use with minor changes in the upper stages. If this adds something useful, then I dub it Partnered Upper Stages. Probably just use the three letter acronym.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This one is just too much fun to leave alone. At work today I  thought of another possibility for early use.</p>
<p>Start with Dave Salts&#8217; 4 ton payload vehicles that have to be refueled leo before delivering a geo bird. After Dave has proved that he can quickly dock and move fuel in orbit, Just start moving the refueling process back toward the release from the lower stages. After a dozen or so launches, the mating could be early enough to seriously add to the fuel remaining in orbit. Two ships delivering a satelite and 6 tons of fuel instead of a satelite and 4 tons of fuel.</p>
<p>It also allows the tanker stage to be completely drained with no requirement for unusable reserve. He could eventually deliver 10 ton satelites instead of 4 ton ones.</p>
<p>This could provide early use with minor changes in the upper stages. If this adds something useful, then I dub it Partnered Upper Stages. Probably just use the three letter acronym.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/01/an-insane-but-interesting-idea-fleet-launched-orbital-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-2585</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=458#comment-2585</guid>
		<description>With a hydrogen or natural gas system could one just transfer the LOX?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With a hydrogen or natural gas system could one just transfer the LOX?</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/01/an-insane-but-interesting-idea-fleet-launched-orbital-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-2584</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=458#comment-2584</guid>
		<description>Doug: Or set up a vertical wind tunnel and have them repeatedly mate and unmate and transfer fluids back and forth. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;That sounds like a good honeymoon activity for people, not just a way to test machine coupling.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;--&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;One can probably get some of the efficiency back for the upper atmosphere ISP by having half the fleet optimized to be going onward. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;--&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I think that there is some built in redundancy here for all but the payload module; about half of them will need male and female components and of those, they are pretty interchangeable so you only net one of the wet lock directions to take. Or one can have the plumbing be an interstage to save some weight.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;--&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I think that if you miss the wet lock but have a dry lock, one can just burn all the fuel in one of the pair. That is, instead of propellant transfer, some of the matchups can just be momentum transfer which should provide a way to get much of the use of the propellant if not optimal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug: Or set up a vertical wind tunnel and have them repeatedly mate and unmate and transfer fluids back and forth. </p>
<p>That sounds like a good honeymoon activity for people, not just a way to test machine coupling.</p>
<p>&#8211;</p>
<p>One can probably get some of the efficiency back for the upper atmosphere ISP by having half the fleet optimized to be going onward. </p>
<p>&#8211;</p>
<p>I think that there is some built in redundancy here for all but the payload module; about half of them will need male and female components and of those, they are pretty interchangeable so you only net one of the wet lock directions to take. Or one can have the plumbing be an interstage to save some weight.</p>
<p>&#8211;</p>
<p>I think that if you miss the wet lock but have a dry lock, one can just burn all the fuel in one of the pair. That is, instead of propellant transfer, some of the matchups can just be momentum transfer which should provide a way to get much of the use of the propellant if not optimal.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/01/an-insane-but-interesting-idea-fleet-launched-orbital-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-2583</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 23:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=458#comment-2583</guid>
		<description>I like redneck (aka John Hare)&#039;s idea- do drop tests from a tower, with cushions below, reasonably tough test vehicles can take the impact.  One time when doing some two-way relative work from a Cessna we got such a good exit that I pinned the other guy about 2 seconds out the door- man did his eyes go big &amp; round...&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;So it&#039;s just subterminal automatic RW with cold gas thrusters.  Piece of cake :)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Recharge the air bottles &amp; batteries, hoist &#039;em up, and do it again fifteen minutes later.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Doug Jones, wistful former skydiver</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like redneck (aka John Hare)&#8217;s idea- do drop tests from a tower, with cushions below, reasonably tough test vehicles can take the impact.  One time when doing some two-way relative work from a Cessna we got such a good exit that I pinned the other guy about 2 seconds out the door- man did his eyes go big &#038; round&#8230;</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s just subterminal automatic RW with cold gas thrusters.  Piece of cake <img src='http://selenianboondocks.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Recharge the air bottles &#038; batteries, hoist &#8216;em up, and do it again fifteen minutes later.</p>
<p>Doug Jones, wistful former skydiver</p>
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		<title>By: redneck</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/01/an-insane-but-interesting-idea-fleet-launched-orbital-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-2582</link>
		<dc:creator>redneck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=458#comment-2582</guid>
		<description>For cheap 3D testing maybe drop pairs of dense rc vehicles from an airplane. They manuever with rcs thrusters and try to link before reaching terminal velocity. Depending on the plane and the unit masses, you should be able to get a few dozen tests per flight.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Under those controled conditions, it should be possible to dock in 10 seconds or less. A couple thousand feet of altitude should do it. Chute recovery of the models.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For cheap 3D testing maybe drop pairs of dense rc vehicles from an airplane. They manuever with rcs thrusters and try to link before reaching terminal velocity. Depending on the plane and the unit masses, you should be able to get a few dozen tests per flight.</p>
<p>Under those controled conditions, it should be possible to dock in 10 seconds or less. A couple thousand feet of altitude should do it. Chute recovery of the models.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/01/an-insane-but-interesting-idea-fleet-launched-orbital-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-2581</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=458#comment-2581</guid>
		<description>Iain&#039;s point about not using engines optimized for exoatmospheric work is a big one I think. Some technology improvements with altitude-compensating engines can probably be done; but I don&#039;t put much hope in it.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;When talking about proximity-operations testing, what occurred to me as a way to experiment with this quickly and cheaply, would be to simplfy it to 2D by having all the robots driving up the inside of a freely-rotating drum. (like a very wide hamster wheel). That would at least let you do a first-order approximation of your necessary routines.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;-- Carl.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iain&#8217;s point about not using engines optimized for exoatmospheric work is a big one I think. Some technology improvements with altitude-compensating engines can probably be done; but I don&#8217;t put much hope in it.</p>
<p>When talking about proximity-operations testing, what occurred to me as a way to experiment with this quickly and cheaply, would be to simplfy it to 2D by having all the robots driving up the inside of a freely-rotating drum. (like a very wide hamster wheel). That would at least let you do a first-order approximation of your necessary routines.</p>
<p>&#8211; Carl.</p>
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		<title>By: gravity loss</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2008/01/an-insane-but-interesting-idea-fleet-launched-orbital-craft/comment-page-1/#comment-2580</link>
		<dc:creator>gravity loss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 03:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=458#comment-2580</guid>
		<description>I still haven&#039;t read the paper, but I think it must end up with the problem that the one stage having the payload must be able to fly out of the atmosphere before the first &quot;dance move&quot; and that sets a minimum isp / propellant fraction / size for it. And it probably isn&#039;t very small.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still haven&#8217;t read the paper, but I think it must end up with the problem that the one stage having the payload must be able to fly out of the atmosphere before the first &#8220;dance move&#8221; and that sets a minimum isp / propellant fraction / size for it. And it probably isn&#8217;t very small.</p>
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