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	<title>Comments on: If You&#8217;re Going to Be Snarky&#8230;..</title>
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	<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2005/11/if-youre-going-to-be-snarky/</link>
	<description>Random Musings from the Warped Minds of Jonathan Goff, Ken Murphy, John Hare, and Kirk Sorensen</description>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Goff</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2005/11/if-youre-going-to-be-snarky/comment-page-1/#comment-7073</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Goff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:02:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=104#comment-7073</guid>
		<description>Thanks Axel for the links.  One thing to remember is that while gravity is lower on the moon, momentum isn&#039;t, and there may also be the temptation (at least when outdoors) to load up as much equipment as possible onto a person.  Basically, if the biochemical side of things doesn&#039;t end up being an issue in lunar gravity, I think that our lunar explorers are probably going to be getting crazy amounts of exercise and heavy lifting.

~Jon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Axel for the links.  One thing to remember is that while gravity is lower on the moon, momentum isn&#8217;t, and there may also be the temptation (at least when outdoors) to load up as much equipment as possible onto a person.  Basically, if the biochemical side of things doesn&#8217;t end up being an issue in lunar gravity, I think that our lunar explorers are probably going to be getting crazy amounts of exercise and heavy lifting.</p>
<p>~Jon</p>
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		<title>By: Axel</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2005/11/if-youre-going-to-be-snarky/comment-page-1/#comment-7068</link>
		<dc:creator>Axel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 13:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=104#comment-7068</guid>
		<description>Jon recently linked to this blog entry. So I feel free to add a comment.

The theory Jon described (body fluids influencing bone loss) was new to me. I was only aware of skeletal stresses being relevant. So I did a bit of net browsing. It seems modern models incorporate both.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20090042802_2009043894.pdf

&quot;Simulating Bone Loss in Microgravity Using Mathematical Formulations of Bone Remodeling&quot; from 2009

&quot;The model is formed by combining a previously developed set of biochemical, cellular dynamics, and mechanical stimulus equations&quot;

Figures at the end show remarkable non-linear behavior for micro gravity. However, no attempt is made to apply the formula to lunar gravity.

http://weboflife.nasa.gov/currentResearch/currentResearchGeneralArchives/weakKnees.htm

&quot;Researchers do not yet know whether the biomechanical stimuli that are changed by microgravity directly affect osteoblast and osteoclast function or if other physiological factors such as hormone levels or poor nutrition contribute to bone loss.&quot;

http://www.lancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2880%2902208-8/fulltext

Effects vary indiviually: &quot;one astronaut lost almost 8% after 84 days&quot; which would be about 3% per month, while other astronauts experience only 1%. So some of us may be more fit for living on the moon than others?

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1992lbsa.conf..569K

&quot;Bone Loss and Human Adaption to Lunar Gravity&quot; from 1992

With some assumptions (which may be true or not), they estimate bone mineral content (BMC) loss of 4 times slower for Moon gravity than for micro gravity.

Finally they say &quot;it is not known whether these effects are self-limiting as they appear for immobilized patients on Earth.&quot;

Hm, gloomy remarks like that are good to motivate research money.

In fact the monthly rate of bone loss is pretty irrelevant for living on the moon. The limit is relevant. The body adjusts bone mass and muscle mass to what is actually needed. And what will the equilibrium be on the Moon?

Yes, we don&#039;t know for sure. Yes, experimental evidence is needed. But personally I believe if the effects are self-limiting on Earth at a near-healthy level (ok, ok, I know, I should do more exercise), then they are similarly self-limiting on the Moon. Which would mean living on the Moon would be ok, but before returning to Earth you should do some months of training and exercises to prepare for Earth gravity.

I could be wrong. And those people warning a hundred year ago that traveling at speeds higher than 30 km/h could lead to serious health problems could have been right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon recently linked to this blog entry. So I feel free to add a comment.</p>
<p>The theory Jon described (body fluids influencing bone loss) was new to me. I was only aware of skeletal stresses being relevant. So I did a bit of net browsing. It seems modern models incorporate both.</p>
<p><a href="http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20090042802_2009043894.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20090042802_2009043894.pdf</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Simulating Bone Loss in Microgravity Using Mathematical Formulations of Bone Remodeling&#8221; from 2009</p>
<p>&#8220;The model is formed by combining a previously developed set of biochemical, cellular dynamics, and mechanical stimulus equations&#8221;</p>
<p>Figures at the end show remarkable non-linear behavior for micro gravity. However, no attempt is made to apply the formula to lunar gravity.</p>
<p><a href="http://weboflife.nasa.gov/currentResearch/currentResearchGeneralArchives/weakKnees.htm" rel="nofollow">http://weboflife.nasa.gov/currentResearch/currentResearchGeneralArchives/weakKnees.htm</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Researchers do not yet know whether the biomechanical stimuli that are changed by microgravity directly affect osteoblast and osteoclast function or if other physiological factors such as hormone levels or poor nutrition contribute to bone loss.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.lancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2880%2902208-8/fulltext" rel="nofollow">http://www.lancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2880%2902208-8/fulltext</a></p>
<p>Effects vary indiviually: &#8220;one astronaut lost almost 8% after 84 days&#8221; which would be about 3% per month, while other astronauts experience only 1%. So some of us may be more fit for living on the moon than others?</p>
<p><a href="http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1992lbsa.conf..569K" rel="nofollow">http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1992lbsa.conf..569K</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Bone Loss and Human Adaption to Lunar Gravity&#8221; from 1992</p>
<p>With some assumptions (which may be true or not), they estimate bone mineral content (BMC) loss of 4 times slower for Moon gravity than for micro gravity.</p>
<p>Finally they say &#8220;it is not known whether these effects are self-limiting as they appear for immobilized patients on Earth.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hm, gloomy remarks like that are good to motivate research money.</p>
<p>In fact the monthly rate of bone loss is pretty irrelevant for living on the moon. The limit is relevant. The body adjusts bone mass and muscle mass to what is actually needed. And what will the equilibrium be on the Moon?</p>
<p>Yes, we don&#8217;t know for sure. Yes, experimental evidence is needed. But personally I believe if the effects are self-limiting on Earth at a near-healthy level (ok, ok, I know, I should do more exercise), then they are similarly self-limiting on the Moon. Which would mean living on the Moon would be ok, but before returning to Earth you should do some months of training and exercises to prepare for Earth gravity.</p>
<p>I could be wrong. And those people warning a hundred year ago that traveling at speeds higher than 30 km/h could lead to serious health problems could have been right.</p>
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		<title>By: publius</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2005/11/if-youre-going-to-be-snarky/comment-page-1/#comment-7028</link>
		<dc:creator>publius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 17:31:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=104#comment-7028</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad to see I&#039;m not the only one who has been making these points, ie that we don&#039;t have any good data-points between the ends of the curve, &amp; that theoretical considerations (mostly from hydraulics) suggest that it should be concave downward.  As ordinary fluid-flow systems seem to work almost the same in lunar as in terrestrial gravity, I think we &quot;ugly bags of mostly water&quot; have a good shot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad to see I&#8217;m not the only one who has been making these points, ie that we don&#8217;t have any good data-points between the ends of the curve, &amp; that theoretical considerations (mostly from hydraulics) suggest that it should be concave downward.  As ordinary fluid-flow systems seem to work almost the same in lunar as in terrestrial gravity, I think we &#8220;ugly bags of mostly water&#8221; have a good shot.</p>
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		<title>By: Selenian Boondocks &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Random Thoughts: Lunar One-Way-to-Stay (For a While)</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2005/11/if-youre-going-to-be-snarky/comment-page-1/#comment-6978</link>
		<dc:creator>Selenian Boondocks &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Random Thoughts: Lunar One-Way-to-Stay (For a While)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=104#comment-6978</guid>
		<description>[...] we have no idea  how many iterations it&#8217;s going to take to make it work.  We have no idea if lunar gravity is high enough to avoid the effects of microgravity on the human body.   There have been lots of lunar [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] we have no idea  how many iterations it&#8217;s going to take to make it work.  We have no idea if lunar gravity is high enough to avoid the effects of microgravity on the human body.   There have been lots of lunar [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Selenian Boondocks &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Random Thoughts: CAM in a Can?</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2005/11/if-youre-going-to-be-snarky/comment-page-1/#comment-6369</link>
		<dc:creator>Selenian Boondocks &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Random Thoughts: CAM in a Can?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:31:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=104#comment-6369</guid>
		<description>[...] gravity might be required to prevent the debilitating effects of microgravity on people.   As I&#8217;ve discussed before on this blog, our knowledge of the impact of gravity levels other than microgravity and 1 gee are almost [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] gravity might be required to prevent the debilitating effects of microgravity on people.   As I&#8217;ve discussed before on this blog, our knowledge of the impact of gravity levels other than microgravity and 1 gee are almost [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Selenian Boondocks &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Lunar Depot-Enabled Multi-Sortie Missions</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2005/11/if-youre-going-to-be-snarky/comment-page-1/#comment-3723</link>
		<dc:creator>Selenian Boondocks &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Lunar Depot-Enabled Multi-Sortie Missions</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 07:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=104#comment-3723</guid>
		<description>[...] data on the impact of lunar gravity on the human body.  As I&#8217;ve mentioned before, we only have six data points that aren&#8217;t at either full 1g (billions of data points) or [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] data on the impact of lunar gravity on the human body.  As I&#8217;ve mentioned before, we only have six data points that aren&#8217;t at either full 1g (billions of data points) or [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Randy Campbell</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2005/11/if-youre-going-to-be-snarky/comment-page-1/#comment-368</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=104#comment-368</guid>
		<description>Just an &#039;off&#039; hand note.. but I recall that &quot;Ultimate Sandbox&quot; was done for the L5 Society IIRCC around 1980 or so?&lt;br/&gt;I remember seeing it quite often on and in L5 stuff along with a few others...&lt;br/&gt;As for people in the 1970 &#039;not&#039; makeing similar &#039;claims&#039; I take it Mr. Bell was.. what? Absent for that decade?&lt;br/&gt;As an avid &#039;space-cadet&#039; in those days and &quot;Future Life&quot; magazine reader I can tell him that such claims WERE made and simply accepted by the majority of space minded folks of the day :o)&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Randy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just an &#8216;off&#8217; hand note.. but I recall that &#8220;Ultimate Sandbox&#8221; was done for the L5 Society IIRCC around 1980 or so?<br />I remember seeing it quite often on and in L5 stuff along with a few others&#8230;<br />As for people in the 1970 &#8216;not&#8217; makeing similar &#8216;claims&#8217; I take it Mr. Bell was.. what? Absent for that decade?<br />As an avid &#8217;space-cadet&#8217; in those days and &#8220;Future Life&#8221; magazine reader I can tell him that such claims WERE made and simply accepted by the majority of space minded folks of the day <img src='http://selenianboondocks.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif' alt=':o' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
<p>Randy</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Dauphin</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2005/11/if-youre-going-to-be-snarky/comment-page-1/#comment-366</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Dauphin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Dec 2005 16:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=104#comment-366</guid>
		<description>Paul: I believe there are such bedrest studies either in process or proposed. I&#039;m sure they&#039;re valuable, but I think their scope is limited. They certainly can&#039;t study the effects of reduced gravity on a normally active person, since bedrest itself is inconsistent with normal activity. While simulations can provide some preliminary data, I suspect we won&#039;t have answers we can really trust &#039;til we have long-term, in situ human studies.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Just another reason to get people living permanently in space and on &quot;planetary&quot; surfaces (by which I meant to include the Moon) ASAP. Nobody waited to colonize the New World &#039;til they could prove it was safe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul: I believe there are such bedrest studies either in process or proposed. I&#8217;m sure they&#8217;re valuable, but I think their scope is limited. They certainly can&#8217;t study the effects of reduced gravity on a normally active person, since bedrest itself is inconsistent with normal activity. While simulations can provide some preliminary data, I suspect we won&#8217;t have answers we can really trust &#8217;til we have long-term, in situ human studies.</p>
<p>Just another reason to get people living permanently in space and on &#8220;planetary&#8221; surfaces (by which I meant to include the Moon) ASAP. Nobody waited to colonize the New World &#8217;til they could prove it was safe.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Dietz</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2005/11/if-youre-going-to-be-snarky/comment-page-1/#comment-359</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Dietz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2005 19:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=104#comment-359</guid>
		<description>If they simulate microgravity with bedrest, perhaps they could simulate reduced gravity with bedrest in an inclined bed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they simulate microgravity with bedrest, perhaps they could simulate reduced gravity with bedrest in an inclined bed.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Goff</title>
		<link>http://selenianboondocks.com/2005/11/if-youre-going-to-be-snarky/comment-page-1/#comment-356</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Goff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Dec 2005 03:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://selenianboondocks.com/?p=104#comment-356</guid>
		<description>Bill,&lt;br/&gt;Regarding the shape of the curve, we were discussing that last night at the Moon Society meeting.  I have some ideas for ways of being able to test the hypothesis inexpensively.  It would take at least $10M or so, but is doable...&lt;br/&gt;~Jon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill,<br />Regarding the shape of the curve, we were discussing that last night at the Moon Society meeting.  I have some ideas for ways of being able to test the hypothesis inexpensively.  It would take at least $10M or so, but is doable&#8230;<br />~Jon</p>
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